I agree with you, Joel, but i also think that there has been a shift in production quality over the years.
People have moved into a "disposable" mentality. Good pens like 'mont blanc' or whatever are a niche market....most people want the bic disposable 10 for a dollar.
I can't pinpoint when it happened....but i think there was a quality and pride associated with *most* goods from the 30's-50's that gradually petered out and met its untimely demise when manufacturing plants began moving overseas.
-Maz
People have moved into a "disposable" mentality. Good pens like 'mont blanc' or whatever are a niche market....most people want the bic disposable 10 for a dollar.
I can't pinpoint when it happened....but i think there was a quality and pride associated with *most* goods from the 30's-50's that gradually petered out and met its untimely demise when manufacturing plants began moving overseas.
-Maz
Hi,
The top products of the companies mentioned here were released around the fifties into the sixties...
Hell a WE 300B isn't worth the exorbitant asking price anymore...is it?
And, as EC8010 pointed out before, we can count ourselves lucky...tubes are cheaper now than when there were no semiconductors around even though they have actually doubled in price over the past 10 years.
The beauty about DIY is that you can actually do as well as the most extravagant high-end at a fraction of the cost...if you care to do some studying on your own.
Cheers,
The top products of the companies mentioned here were released around the fifties into the sixties...
Hell a WE 300B isn't worth the exorbitant asking price anymore...is it?
And, as EC8010 pointed out before, we can count ourselves lucky...tubes are cheaper now than when there were no semiconductors around even though they have actually doubled in price over the past 10 years.
The beauty about DIY is that you can actually do as well as the most extravagant high-end at a fraction of the cost...if you care to do some studying on your own.
Cheers,
I agree with Frank...the best products of these companies were concieved and produced before this decline in quality....
Find me a decent product made by RCA or GE in the last 20 years Who's carrying their electronics now? Walmart. K-Mart. Target.
Paul Klipsch designed his best stuff in the 50s and 60s. The Heritage series or whatever they call them now: La Scalas, K-horns, Bellas, Cornwalls. These sound much better than any of their later designed products.
You can even see the decrease in Dynaco's products over time......people on ebay all seem to want the ST-70's with the cloth lead transformers...the original series kits....WAY more than the ones from the 70's.
I can't comment on Altec's products.
At any rate, it can all be summed up in "They don't make 'em like they used to"
-Maz
Find me a decent product made by RCA or GE in the last 20 years
Who's carrying their electronics now? Walmart. K-Mart. Target.Paul Klipsch designed his best stuff in the 50s and 60s. The Heritage series or whatever they call them now: La Scalas, K-horns, Bellas, Cornwalls. These sound much better than any of their later designed products.
You can even see the decrease in Dynaco's products over time......people on ebay all seem to want the ST-70's with the cloth lead transformers...the original series kits....WAY more than the ones from the 70's.
I can't comment on Altec's products.
At any rate, it can all be summed up in "They don't make 'em like they used to"
-Maz
Hi,
And did you also notice that more and more people are fed up with this "disposable product" industry?
Back in 1986 I started another audio company dealing with that, just that: quality as it should be.
98% of the business was export to Asia...it sure told me a lesson.
Nowadays I could start the same operation ( and I probably will) and it will probably give 50/50 figure on import/export.
It seems more and more people want real value for money, not junk.
Quality always wins in the long run, hence the high asking prices for amps made in the sixties...ever noticed that transistor amp oldies are just worthless on the secondhand market?
Cheers,
And did you also notice that more and more people are fed up with this "disposable product" industry?
Back in 1986 I started another audio company dealing with that, just that: quality as it should be.
98% of the business was export to Asia...it sure told me a lesson.
Nowadays I could start the same operation ( and I probably will) and it will probably give 50/50 figure on import/export.
It seems more and more people want real value for money, not junk.
Quality always wins in the long run, hence the high asking prices for amps made in the sixties...ever noticed that transistor amp oldies are just worthless on the secondhand market?
Cheers,
I wonder about the economics of that, Frank. Is it really a function of quality, '60s versus '70s, or is it something sociological- guys like me who as teens drooled over that fabulous Mac equipment (as an example) and now are in a financial position to chase some of our childhood dreams? That's certainly been a driver in the electric guitar market.
Hi Joel;
No offence intended, but I respectfully differ.
>>>...Last time I checked RCA, Altec, Dynaco, Klipsch, GE, and Western Electric were not DIY'ers....<<<
While it’s true that RCA, GE, and WE were not DIY’ers, Dynaco always catered to the DIY crowd (the 'DynaKit'). Moreover, RCA, GE, and Mullard all had books of schematics and ‘how to’ guides available to foster budding DIYers.
>>>...well, didn't "The Industry" create high-fidelity, tubes, all the classic amplifiers, and all your favorite speakers?....<<<
Actually, valves were originally created for a new technology - radio (thus "receiving" and "transmitting" valves). In this case the technology lead to the creation of the industry, not the other way 'round.
Also, "hifi" was not created by large companies. It was originally a DIY phenomenon as hosts of radio techs newly released from the service following WW2 started to build ‘souped up’ radios and phonographs for their own use, often with DIY horn loudspeakers. Only after ‘hifi’ was discovered to be a new and exploitable market niche was it entered into by the big manufacturers – many of whom went on to stamp “hifi” on any old table radio with the same happy abandon with which their successors have taken to marking loudspeakers and 2 channel receivers with the silly monicker “digital”+. The earliest hifi’s were monophonic, and it’s here that the only major contribution from a major manufacturer entered in (to the best of my knowledge) – that was RCA’s introduction of the “Living Sound Stereo* ” format in the late 1950’s, originally as 2 track tape and later as an LP format.
As a side note, stereo was not originally developed for the home "consumer market"– it’s actual development goes back to the prewar period when it was developed for use in movie theatres. 3 tracks were originally regarded as being best by the time of the ’39 World’s Fair, IIRC.
As far as speaker manufacturers are concerned, here too the lead has always been taken by the “little guy”. Paul Klipsch was not some faceless nameless fellow knocking out “2 way 6 inch monkey caskets** “ to Thiele Small computer simulations for a transnational conglomerate. He was a pioneer in every sense of the word, who did much to further the understanding of horn transducers, and who also founded a small company. Infinity loudspeakers had a similar origin, going back to a troika of young collegians who founded a tiny company; Infinity today is a very different entity, having traded hands and now gracing the ledger sheet of international heavyweight Harmon International. Then there was the story of Winslow Burhoe and his affiliation with AR, EPI, and Genesis Physics, tiny companies all, rather than the industrial heavyweights of the era…..
Please do not misunderstand. I am not trying to villify ‘big companies’; all the industrial heavyweights have skilled, devoted design engineers++ who do their very best to design quality products within the market niche that they have been ordered to work. But that’s the problem with the mass market – the designers are all designing things to keep the ‘business strategists’ and ‘marketing gurus’ happy, rather than setting the product concepts, specs, and market niches themselves.
Valves never would have “gone out of style” in the mainstream IF sound quality was the thing that companies were interested in maximizing – at least in my opinion.
Anyway, sorry again for the rant+++.
Peace my friends, and all the best for each and every one of you.
Morse
+ And it doesn’t stop there – I’ve seen batteries and headphones advertised with the ‘digital’ monicker on the boxes! *sound of my palm slapping my forehead in frustration at the idiocy of it all*
* The “Living Stereo” recordings were of universally high quality and are highly recommended; don’t let their age fool you!
** I wish I could claim credit for that phrase, but I cannot. However, it remains the best description I have seen to date for the majority of loudspeakers in any ‘big box electronics store’.
++ Most of whom soon learn to curse the bean counters who go on to sub-minimum spec their designs to save a few pennies on unit cost.
+++ Now, if you really want a rant, get me going on 70mm Technicolour and it’s replacement in the west with inferior film formats. If you want to do a simple experiment, just watch “The Trouble With Harry” and compare the glorious colours of the autumn leaves in rural Vermont with the drab tones of a modern film. Even a DVD copy, with it’s miserable resolution (less than 1/100th the per time unit detail of 70mm film) can portray the difference in colour between the film formats. However, there is still one place where Technicolour films are made – mainland China. They bought up all the equipment a few years back. And if you don’t believe me, watch “Ju Dou” and look for the lifelike skintones and deep reds in the fabrics as they come out of the dying vats……
No offence intended, but I respectfully differ.
>>>...Last time I checked RCA, Altec, Dynaco, Klipsch, GE, and Western Electric were not DIY'ers....<<<
While it’s true that RCA, GE, and WE were not DIY’ers, Dynaco always catered to the DIY crowd (the 'DynaKit'). Moreover, RCA, GE, and Mullard all had books of schematics and ‘how to’ guides available to foster budding DIYers.
>>>...well, didn't "The Industry" create high-fidelity, tubes, all the classic amplifiers, and all your favorite speakers?....<<<
Actually, valves were originally created for a new technology - radio (thus "receiving" and "transmitting" valves). In this case the technology lead to the creation of the industry, not the other way 'round.
Also, "hifi" was not created by large companies. It was originally a DIY phenomenon as hosts of radio techs newly released from the service following WW2 started to build ‘souped up’ radios and phonographs for their own use, often with DIY horn loudspeakers. Only after ‘hifi’ was discovered to be a new and exploitable market niche was it entered into by the big manufacturers – many of whom went on to stamp “hifi” on any old table radio with the same happy abandon with which their successors have taken to marking loudspeakers and 2 channel receivers with the silly monicker “digital”+. The earliest hifi’s were monophonic, and it’s here that the only major contribution from a major manufacturer entered in (to the best of my knowledge) – that was RCA’s introduction of the “Living Sound Stereo* ” format in the late 1950’s, originally as 2 track tape and later as an LP format.
As a side note, stereo was not originally developed for the home "consumer market"– it’s actual development goes back to the prewar period when it was developed for use in movie theatres. 3 tracks were originally regarded as being best by the time of the ’39 World’s Fair, IIRC.
As far as speaker manufacturers are concerned, here too the lead has always been taken by the “little guy”. Paul Klipsch was not some faceless nameless fellow knocking out “2 way 6 inch monkey caskets** “ to Thiele Small computer simulations for a transnational conglomerate. He was a pioneer in every sense of the word, who did much to further the understanding of horn transducers, and who also founded a small company. Infinity loudspeakers had a similar origin, going back to a troika of young collegians who founded a tiny company; Infinity today is a very different entity, having traded hands and now gracing the ledger sheet of international heavyweight Harmon International. Then there was the story of Winslow Burhoe and his affiliation with AR, EPI, and Genesis Physics, tiny companies all, rather than the industrial heavyweights of the era…..
Please do not misunderstand. I am not trying to villify ‘big companies’; all the industrial heavyweights have skilled, devoted design engineers++ who do their very best to design quality products within the market niche that they have been ordered to work. But that’s the problem with the mass market – the designers are all designing things to keep the ‘business strategists’ and ‘marketing gurus’ happy, rather than setting the product concepts, specs, and market niches themselves.
Valves never would have “gone out of style” in the mainstream IF sound quality was the thing that companies were interested in maximizing – at least in my opinion.
Anyway, sorry again for the rant+++.
Peace my friends, and all the best for each and every one of you.
Morse
+ And it doesn’t stop there – I’ve seen batteries and headphones advertised with the ‘digital’ monicker on the boxes! *sound of my palm slapping my forehead in frustration at the idiocy of it all*
* The “Living Stereo” recordings were of universally high quality and are highly recommended; don’t let their age fool you!
** I wish I could claim credit for that phrase, but I cannot. However, it remains the best description I have seen to date for the majority of loudspeakers in any ‘big box electronics store’.
++ Most of whom soon learn to curse the bean counters who go on to sub-minimum spec their designs to save a few pennies on unit cost.
+++ Now, if you really want a rant, get me going on 70mm Technicolour and it’s replacement in the west with inferior film formats. If you want to do a simple experiment, just watch “The Trouble With Harry” and compare the glorious colours of the autumn leaves in rural Vermont with the drab tones of a modern film. Even a DVD copy, with it’s miserable resolution (less than 1/100th the per time unit detail of 70mm film) can portray the difference in colour between the film formats. However, there is still one place where Technicolour films are made – mainland China. They bought up all the equipment a few years back. And if you don’t believe me, watch “Ju Dou” and look for the lifelike skintones and deep reds in the fabrics as they come out of the dying vats……
ouch at least it came with the iron
Doom and gloom
Crikey Morse,
don't restrain yourself - let's hear what you really think! I'm with you all the way on this, especially when it comes to picture quality. As an ex-Broadcast engineer, I know all the limitations of video, and 35mm film wipes the floor with it. As for 65mm film (the master for 70mm), it's wonderful stuff but expensive. (Bean-counters again.)
The sad fact is that Joe and Josephine Public don't actually give a stuff about quality, and they're going to get what they're told they want. The world is going to be full of; plastic burgers, chemical beer, compressed audio and video and genetically modified food. Fortunately, the human race is making such a mess of the world that it will soon be unviable. Sad, isn't it?
Crikey Morse,
don't restrain yourself - let's hear what you really think! I'm with you all the way on this, especially when it comes to picture quality. As an ex-Broadcast engineer, I know all the limitations of video, and 35mm film wipes the floor with it. As for 65mm film (the master for 70mm), it's wonderful stuff but expensive. (Bean-counters again.)
The sad fact is that Joe and Josephine Public don't actually give a stuff about quality, and they're going to get what they're told they want. The world is going to be full of; plastic burgers, chemical beer, compressed audio and video and genetically modified food. Fortunately, the human race is making such a mess of the world that it will soon be unviable. Sad, isn't it?
Hi EC8010;
Thanks for the words of wisdom. Yep, that's the way that the world works....and we're all just lucky to still be able to build our own things to suit our taste (valve hifi's, efficient speakers, real wood furniture, etc).
Sorry about the length of that rant! I'll blame part of it on being a fast touch typist!
Have a great one!
Morse
Thanks for the words of wisdom. Yep, that's the way that the world works....and we're all just lucky to still be able to build our own things to suit our taste (valve hifi's, efficient speakers, real wood furniture, etc).
Sorry about the length of that rant! I'll blame part of it on being a fast touch typist!
Have a great one!
Morse
"Quality"..
Sounds like many of you have not heard that the electronics "industry", at least TV companies changed the definition of "Quality".
I was at a meeting of some people from one of our tv companies, mid 80s I believe, and they catagorically stated that the definition of "Quality" has been changed by the industry.
Paraphrasing, Quality used to mean long, useful life with minimal breakdowns. Now
quality means nothing more than the number of conviences, extras, features, that a product has. It has Nothing to do with longlife, problem free, anymore.
I couldn't believe it when I heard it, but then again, I had some of that junk that was breaking down all the time.
I will tell you I am not deviating from what was said.
Of course the public wasn't informed of this change in definition.
Sounds like many of you have not heard that the electronics "industry", at least TV companies changed the definition of "Quality".
I was at a meeting of some people from one of our tv companies, mid 80s I believe, and they catagorically stated that the definition of "Quality" has been changed by the industry.
Paraphrasing, Quality used to mean long, useful life with minimal breakdowns. Now
quality means nothing more than the number of conviences, extras, features, that a product has. It has Nothing to do with longlife, problem free, anymore.
I couldn't believe it when I heard it, but then again, I had some of that junk that was breaking down all the time.
I will tell you I am not deviating from what was said.
Of course the public wasn't informed of this change in definition.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.