I'm just the latest in many converts to the SE 300b sound. I have a LL1623/60 in my DIY amp driven by 46s and the following on the shelf:
LL1682/50
LL1620/80
I'm liking the sound of this, and would like to know how good it can get with output transformers.
I enclose a shootout below which suggested that there is better out there than Lundahl, but I need others to give me their listening experiences. So please join in this thread with your own experience, whatever the OPT is you have heard!
Andy Evans
__________________________________________________
Here is our Thailand shotout. (DIY Audio) We test on 2A3 first.
1. Tamura F-2007
The one that was installed on the chassis. Neutral, clear bass and good impact in LF. Detail and HF is fair.
2. Tamura F-7003
Connected for 5K. Sweet and pleasingly musical. It made female vocal more sweet and seem to be younger. Unfortunately, bass is not as clear as the F-2007 but good enough.
3. NY-15-3.5s
Same tone of F-7003 with a bit of added detail in the HF. The vocals are the same as F-7003. We 're surprised that NY-15.3.5s is so close to the F-7003, much more so than other series of the same brand.
4. Tamura F-5002
Superb detail. Vocal is very clear but not as sweet and pleasing as both permalloy transformers. Lacks the bass of all the above. But we have some magic.
5 LL1623
Very economic. Less detail and clarity than a Japanese trans. Bass is same as F-2007 with the same character, punchy and full. We didn't listen to this trans as much 'coz it worse than any Japanese transformer.
6. DIY trans 3k
Less clear than LL1623 but tonal balance is same. Nothing to talk about. We have to experiment much more.
After the first round we concluded the "sound of the core" made the difference. Hi-B give neutral and full bass with impact. Bandwidth is less than others. Permalloy adds something good to vocals. Less full and clear in the bass. Amorphous very detailed and clear with less impact of bass. Bandwidth is so wide.
Second round started with the VV52. We focused on F-7003 and F-5002 only. The result still the same but the owner of F-7003 said "I feel the detail of F-7003 was hidden somewhere"
So, we moved both OPT to the Spk terminal to use #35 SWG 20cm long of Spk cable and used 5 meter for HV cable from VV52 to OPT. Believe it or not, both OPT gained in detail and F-5002 showed more volume and clearer bass than the F-7003, even better than F-2007, I think. I thought this contradicted the idea that F-5002 has weak bass.
LL1682/50
LL1620/80
I'm liking the sound of this, and would like to know how good it can get with output transformers.
I enclose a shootout below which suggested that there is better out there than Lundahl, but I need others to give me their listening experiences. So please join in this thread with your own experience, whatever the OPT is you have heard!
Andy Evans
__________________________________________________
Here is our Thailand shotout. (DIY Audio) We test on 2A3 first.
1. Tamura F-2007
The one that was installed on the chassis. Neutral, clear bass and good impact in LF. Detail and HF is fair.
2. Tamura F-7003
Connected for 5K. Sweet and pleasingly musical. It made female vocal more sweet and seem to be younger. Unfortunately, bass is not as clear as the F-2007 but good enough.
3. NY-15-3.5s
Same tone of F-7003 with a bit of added detail in the HF. The vocals are the same as F-7003. We 're surprised that NY-15.3.5s is so close to the F-7003, much more so than other series of the same brand.
4. Tamura F-5002
Superb detail. Vocal is very clear but not as sweet and pleasing as both permalloy transformers. Lacks the bass of all the above. But we have some magic.
5 LL1623
Very economic. Less detail and clarity than a Japanese trans. Bass is same as F-2007 with the same character, punchy and full. We didn't listen to this trans as much 'coz it worse than any Japanese transformer.
6. DIY trans 3k
Less clear than LL1623 but tonal balance is same. Nothing to talk about. We have to experiment much more.
After the first round we concluded the "sound of the core" made the difference. Hi-B give neutral and full bass with impact. Bandwidth is less than others. Permalloy adds something good to vocals. Less full and clear in the bass. Amorphous very detailed and clear with less impact of bass. Bandwidth is so wide.
Second round started with the VV52. We focused on F-7003 and F-5002 only. The result still the same but the owner of F-7003 said "I feel the detail of F-7003 was hidden somewhere"
So, we moved both OPT to the Spk terminal to use #35 SWG 20cm long of Spk cable and used 5 meter for HV cable from VV52 to OPT. Believe it or not, both OPT gained in detail and F-5002 showed more volume and clearer bass than the F-7003, even better than F-2007, I think. I thought this contradicted the idea that F-5002 has weak bass.
As an update I've been doing some searching and reaults seem to be that in ranking order something like this is reported:
1) Tamura or Tribute, amorphous or permalloy, e.g. Tamura
F-5000 series amorphous core
F-7000 series permalloy core
These are expensive, like 300GBP for amorphous and 200GBP for permalloy
2) Lundahl = James
James make some of the Tamura transformers according to reports. Lundahl make amorphous cores, so they should be contenders, and their ordinary range can be good, though no doubt some are better than others - some designs are quite old and some newer.
3)Bartolucci = Audio Note
Don't know much about these, for Barties around 300 Euros each http://www.audiokit.it/ENG/Frames/Introduction1.htm
4) Electraprint
5) Magnequest
6) Hammond
One interesting range is Silk from Thailand:
S-325 standard range = 138GBP
S-303 economy = £63
http://www.sacthailand.com/
Another is Hashimoto http://stores.ebay.com/Vintage-and-High-End-Audio-from-OBS
H-30-3.5S Cost $380
H-20-3.5U Cost: $225ea ($530 pair OBS)
Has anybody had experiences of Silk or Hashimoto, or indeed any of the others??
1) Tamura or Tribute, amorphous or permalloy, e.g. Tamura
F-5000 series amorphous core
F-7000 series permalloy core
These are expensive, like 300GBP for amorphous and 200GBP for permalloy
2) Lundahl = James
James make some of the Tamura transformers according to reports. Lundahl make amorphous cores, so they should be contenders, and their ordinary range can be good, though no doubt some are better than others - some designs are quite old and some newer.
3)Bartolucci = Audio Note
Don't know much about these, for Barties around 300 Euros each http://www.audiokit.it/ENG/Frames/Introduction1.htm
4) Electraprint
5) Magnequest
6) Hammond
One interesting range is Silk from Thailand:
S-325 standard range = 138GBP
S-303 economy = £63
http://www.sacthailand.com/
Another is Hashimoto http://stores.ebay.com/Vintage-and-High-End-Audio-from-OBS
H-30-3.5S Cost $380
H-20-3.5U Cost: $225ea ($530 pair OBS)
Has anybody had experiences of Silk or Hashimoto, or indeed any of the others??
I've been discussing a wide-bandwidth OPT with Edcor . A 15W 3K version with an UL tap and 8 ohms out costs $60, plus $20 one-time only for the designing fee. These people seem to know what they're doing, they might be worth a shot! Especially at the price, I'd be interested to see what they can come up with.
I recently did a comparison test between the Tango U-808, James 6123HS, and James 6157HS with a Loesch designed type '50 amp. For a similar price, the 6123HS was superior to the U-808 in every category. The 6157HS was superior to both in terms of distortion and bass extension (surprise surprise) albeit the 7K tap was used while the others had only a 5K max tap. The 6123 had better HF extension and somewhat clearer highs than the 6157, however.
John
John
I would like to se some listening-reports from the Silk iron.
The amps and trafos are all measured, layout seems neat...
Prices are reasonable...
http://www.sacthailand.com/Transformer_TestOutput.html
http://www.sacthailand.com/Transformer_SilkWinding.html
Arne K
The amps and trafos are all measured, layout seems neat...
Prices are reasonable...
http://www.sacthailand.com/Transformer_TestOutput.html
http://www.sacthailand.com/Transformer_SilkWinding.html
Arne K
I've been discussing a wide-bandwidth OPT with Edcor . A 15W 3K version with an UL tap and 8 ohms out costs $60, plus $20 one-time only for the designing fee. These people seem to know what they're doing, they might be worth a shot! Especially at the price, I'd be interested to see what they can come up with.>>>
Have you asked about different core types - amorphous and permalloy, low nickel content (50%) and high nickel content (80%). It would be very interesting to see how they price these. If they could undercut other makers then they would be competitive. The same would be true of interstages. I'd definitely be interested in what they could offer in terms of superior cores.
Roports to me vary from "go for nickel, forget amorphous" to
"good Amorphous OT will give you more civilized sound, better HF and more rounded and dynamic LF. LF wouldn't be rather as solid as silicon steel cores, but more vivid. If you are rather a ROCK MUSIC guy, stay with SS cores, If more towards chamber music - go for amorphous. Don't forget, that amorphous core needs a lot of break-in-in time to show what it can deliver,"
Does anyone have experience with permalloy and/or amorphous?
Have you asked about different core types - amorphous and permalloy, low nickel content (50%) and high nickel content (80%). It would be very interesting to see how they price these. If they could undercut other makers then they would be competitive. The same would be true of interstages. I'd definitely be interested in what they could offer in terms of superior cores.
Roports to me vary from "go for nickel, forget amorphous" to
"good Amorphous OT will give you more civilized sound, better HF and more rounded and dynamic LF. LF wouldn't be rather as solid as silicon steel cores, but more vivid. If you are rather a ROCK MUSIC guy, stay with SS cores, If more towards chamber music - go for amorphous. Don't forget, that amorphous core needs a lot of break-in-in time to show what it can deliver,"
Does anyone have experience with permalloy and/or amorphous?
I used Tamura F-5002 transformers in my commercial 300B SE amplifier line - flat out the best of several I have worked with.
Great overall performance, solid extended bass, great mid range detail and HF extension. Definitely the least compromised transformer I have used in my designs - note though that I have never really seriously compared them to anything else. Unfortunately I couldn't afford them for my personal amplifier..
Great overall performance, solid extended bass, great mid range detail and HF extension. Definitely the least compromised transformer I have used in my designs - note though that I have never really seriously compared them to anything else. Unfortunately I couldn't afford them for my personal amplifier..
Why don't you order trannies from Heyboer? You can have them made to your EXACT specs and they will charge you only $20-$30 more than an Edcor. Why buy one off the shelf and make compromises? I've been ordering from them for a couple years now, outputs and power. I am always completely satisfied with the results
~~~John~~~
~~~John~~~
I've had pretty good luck with Electra-Print myself and can recommend them. They recently made transformers to spec for my headphone amplifier, both the 5K:32 ohm outputs and the power transformer.
I've heard good things about Heyboer too.
The Tamura F-5002 Amorphous cores are in a class by themselves, otherwise I tend to source things "locally." (By that I mean this continent.)
James makes some nice iron, some of it reasonably priced.
Hashimoto is another that makes good, if expensive iron. (At least here.)
Bartolucci makes great stuff from experience, expensive.
Might as well add Magnequest, great stuff too, and a range of products spanning the budget range.
I've heard good things about Heyboer too.
The Tamura F-5002 Amorphous cores are in a class by themselves, otherwise I tend to source things "locally." (By that I mean this continent.)
James makes some nice iron, some of it reasonably priced.
Hashimoto is another that makes good, if expensive iron. (At least here.)
Bartolucci makes great stuff from experience, expensive.
Might as well add Magnequest, great stuff too, and a range of products spanning the budget range.
hi,
if U like the amorphous OPT probably I can help U. I was OEM some audio transformers to japan audio shops. this is nickel base Nano amorphous core OPT. with 6N furukawa wire. take a look, I als had 5N mono crystalline silver wire OPT but its too expensive,,. take a look for test result with 5002, 5002 was worst in bass. I use tango X-series winding to nickel core & solve this problem already. & me.
thx
thomas
5002
if U like the amorphous OPT probably I can help U. I was OEM some audio transformers to japan audio shops. this is nickel base Nano amorphous core OPT. with 6N furukawa wire. take a look, I als had 5N mono crystalline silver wire OPT but its too expensive,,. take a look for test result with 5002, 5002 was worst in bass. I use tango X-series winding to nickel core & solve this problem already. & me.
thx
thomas
5002
my OPT,
test by audio precision.
check the band-width & distortion please.
thx
thomas
cross section area of Nickel base Nano amorphous core.
4N monocrystalline silver wire with polyurthene coating( low leakage & low capacitance of the coil).
thxz
thomas
test by audio precision.
check the band-width & distortion please.
thx
thomas
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
cross section area of Nickel base Nano amorphous core.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
4N monocrystalline silver wire with polyurthene coating( low leakage & low capacitance of the coil).
thxz
thomas
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hi Thomas,
While I appreciate the fact that you are trying to provide me and others with an alternative to the F-5002 it isn't really considered best forum etiquette to bombard the discussion with a multi post commercial plug for your products as good as they may be. A single post advising people that you have something similar to offer and a link to the information would be much more considerate - otherwise you should post this sort of stuff in the for sale area.
Note that this is just my personal opinion, and others may (probably) disagree.
And yes I am well aware of the technical limitations of the F-5002, to my ears it is just the best compromise I have ever heard.
Testing at 30ma in an application that will operate at 60 - 80mA does not tell me what I need to know. IIRC The tamura charts are with primary dc of 60mA or higher depending on application. The maximum ratings for this transformer are 100mA, and IIRC the published specifications are based on this current level.
While I appreciate the fact that you are trying to provide me and others with an alternative to the F-5002 it isn't really considered best forum etiquette to bombard the discussion with a multi post commercial plug for your products as good as they may be. A single post advising people that you have something similar to offer and a link to the information would be much more considerate - otherwise you should post this sort of stuff in the for sale area.
Note that this is just my personal opinion, and others may (probably) disagree.
And yes I am well aware of the technical limitations of the F-5002, to my ears it is just the best compromise I have ever heard.
Testing at 30ma in an application that will operate at 60 - 80mA does not tell me what I need to know. IIRC The tamura charts are with primary dc of 60mA or higher depending on application. The maximum ratings for this transformer are 100mA, and IIRC the published specifications are based on this current level.
hi kevinkr,
I was dealer of tango & tamura in hong kong. I resell their OPT & also help them to do something. so I also know some more about their design & understand the weak & advantage of them.
I understand that U use your ear to compare is a good judgement for the performance of the OPT.But in my test I found 5002 in distortion area still can improve little. probably U disagree. But this is my opinion. Kevin , if U had some comment for this. Hope U share about this. I was reseach about how to improve the distortionof OPT.
I like test compare which one is better in which area. that why I continous to use cyro copper wire & Violin vanish in here.
Pls understand I still not say the price. This probably not the commerical. But if U think this is commerical I will not post any in here. As a diyers. always like to continous test & found out which one is better & best price cost ratio.
Audio precison almost the most accurate test meter for OPT band width. Do U really use 80ma or 100ma test for 5002?
if U try this. I will say U cannot reach the real post data as factory!
U can try.
I test tailor made tango( special NY-15-3.5S, X-3.5S, Tamura 2007,7002,5002 etc, hashimoto OPT & change different material of layered material & wire for their reference.
I did this only hope to find a good but resonable price goods for diyers. If all item was realy expensive. I though not too many diyers can afford for them.
Do U test AN kondo Ongaku OPT already, I broken on AN kondo Ongaku already& hope to find the different design to full fill my data already.
But....BTW, sorry to make U unhappy!!!!
If I action made U unhappy. Many sorry for my post. many sorry.
I will left this message.
Bye bye.
thx
thomas
I was dealer of tango & tamura in hong kong. I resell their OPT & also help them to do something. so I also know some more about their design & understand the weak & advantage of them.
I understand that U use your ear to compare is a good judgement for the performance of the OPT.But in my test I found 5002 in distortion area still can improve little. probably U disagree. But this is my opinion. Kevin , if U had some comment for this. Hope U share about this. I was reseach about how to improve the distortionof OPT.
I like test compare which one is better in which area. that why I continous to use cyro copper wire & Violin vanish in here.
Pls understand I still not say the price. This probably not the commerical. But if U think this is commerical I will not post any in here. As a diyers. always like to continous test & found out which one is better & best price cost ratio.
Audio precison almost the most accurate test meter for OPT band width. Do U really use 80ma or 100ma test for 5002?
if U try this. I will say U cannot reach the real post data as factory!
U can try.
I test tailor made tango( special NY-15-3.5S, X-3.5S, Tamura 2007,7002,5002 etc, hashimoto OPT & change different material of layered material & wire for their reference.
I did this only hope to find a good but resonable price goods for diyers. If all item was realy expensive. I though not too many diyers can afford for them.
Do U test AN kondo Ongaku OPT already, I broken on AN kondo Ongaku already& hope to find the different design to full fill my data already.
But....BTW, sorry to make U unhappy!!!!
If I action made U unhappy. Many sorry for my post. many sorry.
I will left this message.
Bye bye.
thx
thomas
hi Gordy,
Understand!
hi Kevin,
Actually I really happy to hear U well aware of the technical limitations of the F-5002. Do U had any more coment of Tamura OPT or different transformers we can discuss! Before I reserachdifferent brand of audio transformers such as Tamura.
I keep stock of different productio period of them & test for their technical limitations about them!
this is 1960~70's Tamura product.
I test their technical limitations & compare with nowsdays trans.
If data large improve. I always broken for them to compare test data or hearing imprvement was cause by, layered material or core or winding method or copper wire purity!
hope can share with more!
thx
thomas
photo show 1960~1970's Tamura audio transformers.
Understand!
hi Kevin,
Actually I really happy to hear U well aware of the technical limitations of the F-5002. Do U had any more coment of Tamura OPT or different transformers we can discuss! Before I reserachdifferent brand of audio transformers such as Tamura.
I keep stock of different productio period of them & test for their technical limitations about them!
this is 1960~70's Tamura product.
I test their technical limitations & compare with nowsdays trans.
If data large improve. I always broken for them to compare test data or hearing imprvement was cause by, layered material or core or winding method or copper wire purity!
hope can share with more!
thx
thomas
photo show 1960~1970's Tamura audio transformers.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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