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Snake oil for cars engine
Snake oil for cars engine
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Old 10th July 2019, 08:41 PM   #51
TheGimp is offline TheGimp  United States
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I noticed that Ford and GM stated they have no plans for switching to the lighter oil in that article.

It might have been marketing, but I have seen several videos ("Modern Marvels" ?) on automobile manufacturing at specific plants in which they claim the modern manufacturing tolerances are much tighter than in the past (referring to the 70s).
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Old 10th July 2019, 11:04 PM   #52
phase is offline phase  United States
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That tv show was likely referring to tooling and automation enabling tighter gaps in body panels etc. not internal engine clearances.

New engines still free up after a few thousand miles, nothing has changed there, you were always advised to take it easy on a new engine, and now they may run them in a bit at the factory to help prevent bad things from happening. We had an 8,000 rpm Acura that advised in the manual to not beat it too hard for some amount of miles I recall. That car engine loosened up at around 5K miles, which is typical.
Many years ago there was non-detergent oil for the purpose of allowing rings to seat, but that went away at some point. Never saw the merit in doing that and risking a new camshaft myself.

Maybe some better coatings on pistons, piston construction, better ring materials, but the running clearances are the same. Nothing that a lower viscosity oil is going to change.
The engine parts still have mass and expand and contract the same as always.

Look up recommendations for oil on North American Toyota’s vs those in Ireland and Australia, can choose a vehicle that is sold with the same engine in all those areas and then check the specs from the manufacturer; one says to use 0W-XX, while the other says 5W-XX.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:34 AM   #53
PRR is offline PRR  United States
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> how is it explained that in current engines no more periods of settlement are needed ?

Old engines spent 98k of 100k miles at nearly constant clearance, after a 2k break-in.

New engines are factory honed to nearly final clearance, negligible break-in (settlement).
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:45 AM   #54
chris719 is offline chris719  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman bob View Post
Use what it calls for......if it calls for 5w40, then use 5w40.

I’m not too fond of this 0w- - stuff......maybe if I were in arctic conditions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phase View Post
Look up recommendations for oil on North American Toyota’s vs those in Ireland and Australia, can choose a vehicle that is sold with the same engine in all those areas and then check the specs from the manufacturer; one says to use 0W-XX, while the other says 5W-XX.

The "W" rating is the SAE viscosity curve it sits on at 0C. The second number the curve at 100C. The oil is not thinner at 0C than it is at 100C, it's merely thinner relative than if it were a straight viscosity. Since passenger cars target around 100C, it is a misconception that any oil is too thin at startup; it is still thicker than ideal, even a 0w. Generally speaking, a 5W-40 is in theory not any thicker than a 0W-40 once the car is warmed up, and it performs better on startup. Now, in practice a 0W-40 is slightly thinner than a 5W-40, but it still must meet SAE specs for 40 grade or it could not be labeled it. A 0W-xx is often a better oil than the 5w-xx version because to get the 0W it needs a fancier base stock or VII additives.

A 0W-40 is way thicker than a 5W-20. Go pour both into a beaker, even cold. The 0W is only thinner well below freezing. If you have problems with thin oil, look to the second number.

Last edited by chris719; 11th July 2019 at 03:49 AM.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:51 AM   #55
chris719 is offline chris719  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRR View Post
> how is it explained that in current engines no more periods of settlement are needed ?

Old engines spent 98k of 100k miles at nearly constant clearance, after a 2k break-in.

New engines are factory honed to nearly final clearance, negligible break-in (settlement).
Yes, many engines are actually redlined at the factory. The only new cars (that I can recall) that carry official break-in instructions and an early service are some Porsches and BMW M cars. They are subjects of much debate. It is in all likelihood a leftover warning to prevent doctors and lawyers from wrapping their 400+ HP cars around trees in the first month of ownership.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:53 AM   #56
PRR is offline PRR  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
...a misconception that any oil is too thin at startup; it is still thicker than ideal...
Yes. Straight oil's viscosity drops more than 1000:1 from 0 to 100. It varies so much it is never optimum (except by accident).

Fortunately the optimum is broad. Viscosity in a beaker is different from why bearings build self-pressure under a dynamic load. Very cold thick oil slows a starter which is already slow from a cold battery. Very hot/thin oil requires a bigger oil-pump than the maker wants to put in (also excess pumping loss when oil is more normal).
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:58 AM   #57
chris719 is offline chris719  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phase View Post

Maybe some better coatings on pistons, piston construction, better ring materials, but the running clearances are the same. Nothing that a lower viscosity oil is going to change.
The engine parts still have mass and expand and contract the same as always.
Let me guess, your Acura was an RSX Type S with a K20 engine. Nice engine.

The hot viscosity of the oil is what determines clearances and those definitely have gone down as manufacturing tolerances have improved and the industry has broadly switched to 20 weight oils. Further, many older or high performance engines like your K20 were not ALL aluminum, they had cast iron cylinder sleeves even when they had an aluminum block. The sleeves then have a different thermal coefficient of expansion than the bores. The most modern engines don't use cylinder liners and are made of AluSil or similar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PRR View Post
Yes. Straight oil's viscosity drops more than 1000:1 from 0 to 100. It varies so much it is never optimum (except by accident).

Fortunately the optimum is broad. Viscosity in a beaker is different from why bearings build self-pressure under a dynamic load. Very cold thick oil slows a starter which is already slow from a cold battery. Very hot/thin oil requires a bigger oil-pump than the maker wants to put in (also excess pumping loss when oil is more normal).
Yep, the oil pressure / flow is what's important if I recall correctly, as far as plain bearings go. If you are relying on leftover film strength to protect you, you're in trouble.

I had a car with the BMW S54 engine (100 hp/L NA, undersquare, 8k redline) which was known to eat rod bearings. You can put whatever oil you like in them, but the bearings never look good when they are pulled after 100k miles. BMW panic switched everyone to Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 but there is no evidence it actually helps and it is thicc for the street . On that engine I'm not sure if anyone conclusively got to the bottom of it, but on the later high revving V8 and V10 some guys redesigned the bearings and got Mahle Clevite to make a batch for increased clearance and tweaked eccentricity. The clearances were very tight for engines that came with 10W-60 factory fill.

Last edited by chris719; 11th July 2019 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:01 PM   #58
mountainman bob is offline mountainman bob  United States
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I grew up in a racing family (stock car,drag,mx,enduro/gncc) used to use straight 30w because multi vis breaks down faster and the bigger the difference between the first and second numbers the quicker it happens.
The best thing you can do for longevity is find the highest ppm of zddp in whatever viscosity recoed.
This was getting hard to find and I think the last oil we used was royal purple (not for sure though) many specialty oils still have zddp.....I think shell aviation oil had high levels in its ad pack but your talking over 15 yrs ago!
zddp is where it’s at.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:24 PM   #59
chris719 is offline chris719  United States
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Snake oil for cars engine
Lots of good data on BITOG on shear stability. A 0w-xx vs 5w-xx is not much different in that regard for the most part. ZDDP damages / reduces the lifespan of catalytic converters, so there are new additives like Ti in new oils.
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:07 PM   #60
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainman bob View Post
I grew up in a racing family...
Without questioning your opinions (although you don't mention what Royal Purpose costs extra), since modern engines seem to outlast the rest of the car even for cars owned by negligent maintainers.... there have to be other matters to fret about rather than finding the perfect oil.

Stated differently, can anybody point to trustworthy evidence that it makes any difference between the better and the worser oils for longevity? Or performance?

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