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why do I need to go beyond 10 kHz?
why do I need to go beyond 10 kHz?
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Old 10th May 2019, 04:36 PM   #11
FauxFrench is offline FauxFrench  France
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Not all music is recorded for the "gray gold". The youth can hear 18KHz-22KHz until they start listening to heavy metal etc......... A church-organ produces very high tones.
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Old 10th May 2019, 04:43 PM   #12
rayma is offline rayma  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harum View Post
Isn't it correct that the sound produced by a musical instrument reaches the recording device
as an interference pattern of all the available harmonics? By this time, the higher frequency
harmonics, say above 12 kHz, have already contributed to the lower part of the spectrum
through interference.
Wave propagation in air is linear up to rather high sound levels, so the various waves do not interact in that sense. The presence of one frequency does not change any others except by linear superposition (adding or subtracting).

Last edited by rayma; 10th May 2019 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 10th May 2019, 04:46 PM   #13
nigelwright7557 is offline nigelwright7557  United Kingdom
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If you bandwidth limit the signal to 10KHz you slow down the transient response.
I have seen some audio amp's that work up to 100KHz or more.
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Old 10th May 2019, 04:53 PM   #14
harum is offline harum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FauxFrench View Post
...... A church-organ produces very high tones.
By the time one starts listening to it the full experience might not be reached.
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Old 10th May 2019, 04:56 PM   #15
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
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the higher frequency is your system resolution and speed.

The energy at 10khz + will dissipate somewhere, maybe in the output stage! if it has infinite impedance in the circuit.

Some people have disconnected tweeters in their speakers and never notice
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:16 PM   #16
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harum View Post
Isn't it correct that the sound produced by a musical instrument reaches the recording device as an interference pattern of all the available harmonics? By this time, the higher frequency harmonics, say above 12 kHz, have already contributed to the lower part of the spectrum through interference. Why would we keep (or attempt to reproduce) the higher frequencies (above the 12 kHz) in the recording (in case we don't hear them)?
Good question, you are thinking How do you think the higher harmonics interfere, what would show on an oscilloscope screen?
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:22 PM   #17
harum is offline harum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
How do you think the higher harmonics interfere, what would show on an oscilloscope screen?
Isn't it true in general that interference (or is it superposition?) of two different harmonics can produce a frequency and side bands that are much lower than one of the harmonics?
Meaning we might not hear the higher of the harmonics but we hear its influence on the result through interference.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:32 PM   #18
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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That's true. You'd see that on a spectrum analyser. The point I was trying to make by mentioning an oscilloscope screen is that the high frequency harmonics are still present in the signal and ideally should be reproduced.
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Old 10th May 2019, 07:09 PM   #19
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harum View Post
Isn't it true in general that interference (or is it superposition?) of two different harmonics can produce a frequency and side bands that are much lower than one of the harmonics?
Meaning we might not hear the higher of the harmonics but we hear its influence on the result through interference.
You do hear a 15 khz second harmonic at 7.5 khz, your brain can fill the missing information. This is independent of having a 15khz resolution or not, it should be in the recording.

But the bandwidth on the other hand is very important, suppose a -3 db at 10 khz , you will have a decreasing response and higher THD way below in the listening range.

One thing for sure is that the 8khz + I would say in audio is way over rated.... most of the good stuff happens between 100 - 900, 2khz are the voice harmonics, and then high pitch instrument almost all stop at 5khz in normal music scores, then 8khz has many harmonics, over this is it mostly ambiance, like one said, organ high pitch notes, high hat, soprano trumpet etc and only their harmonics.

so to recap, in good system you should be able to tell how big is the recording room if it applies, where the walls are, distances between instruments from the delay and image, and hear the room resonance, 'air' is the generic term for that. Nevertheless a system with no 'air' can sound very good and relax.
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Last edited by gabdx; 10th May 2019 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:24 AM   #20
PRR is offline PRR  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
I wonder if hearing loss low pass filter causes phase distortion......
Yes and no. Yes, there is phase-shift at the corner. No, because audio phase-shift is not very significant, and NO! because when hearing loss gets bad you just can't hear the upper harmonics at all to know what shifted.

"20KHz" is buzz-word. Before that it was 15KC. Before that 7KC was considered wide-band. I have been quite happy (in my youth) with systems which did not throw much 7KHz to where I was listening. It adds sizzle to disco cymbals. I (used to) notice the lack in a few orchestral passages. A significant loss was the squeedle synth passage in The Dead's Unbroken Chain. But most >7KHz is not *musically* essential.
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