Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Capacitor "rolling" question
Capacitor "rolling" question
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 28th March 2019, 03:00 AM   #1
Cloth Ears is offline Cloth Ears  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Cloth Ears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Default Capacitor "rolling" question

Hi,

I should mention from the beginning that I'm not able to build electronics - I realised this from an early age. I can understand the concepts, but except for soldering passive crossovers together, basically I'm a lost cause.

So with that in mind...

I've seen a few pieces of equipment where capacitors have been upgraded. In almost all cases, this has been type for type (electrolytic for same, etc). But in some cases, I've see electrolytics replaced with polypropelene and the like.

Is this possible throughout a piece of equipment? Could you, for example, even build a power supply using polyprop caps (yes, expensive and yes, lots of space required)? Are there any places where an electrolytic is simply the only option, or is it always a price versus performance thing?

Specifically, I saw a Sumo Delilah, where the standard 10uF caps had been replaced by Jantzen Z-Standards, but the 47uF ones were replaced by Nichicon Muse BP (even though you could probably grab some non-electrolytic caps for about the same price). And the power supply was still electrolytics - just better ones.

If this is addressed somewhere else, just point me that way.

Thanks
__________________
Jont.
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 06:00 AM   #2
tomchr is offline tomchr  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
tomchr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Calgary
The Nichicon Muse UES-series of bipolar caps cause no audible distortion as far as I can measure (Audio Precision APx525). Many "audiophile" capacitors actually measure worse than non-audiophile equivalents. Basically, the audiophile capacitors are further away from an ideal capacitor than a generic part at significantly lower cost.

There's nothing really that prevents you from putting 1000 10 uF polypropylene capacitors in parallel to form your 10000 uF supply cap. The cost will be astronomical, it'll weigh a ton, and take up a lot of space. It'll also likely have worse parasitics than an electrolytic cap due to all the wiring between the capacitors.

Using polypropylene (or Nichicon UES) caps in series with the signal makes sense. Elsewhere, you're not likely to see an effect.

Tom
__________________
Modulus-86, 186, 286, 286 Kit, & 686: 40-240W (8Ω) at <-120dB THD. HP-1: 3W/20Ω, -130dB THD, 128dB DNR.
Neurochrome : : Audio - www.neurochrome.com - Engineering : : Done : : Right
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 10:41 AM   #3
DF96 is offline DF96  England
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
This issue comes up in multiple threads.

You can often replace caps with different caps. In most cases this will result in no change. In some cases you might get slightly better performance. In some cases you will get worse performance. Replacing caps is generally done by people who are graduating from changing cables, once they have learnt how to solder.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 11:27 AM   #4
postpunk is online now postpunk  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Replacing caps is generally done by people who are graduating from changing cables, once they have learnt how to solder.
Ah, those were the days, so much youthful enthusiasm
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 12:49 PM   #5
Osvaldo de Banfield is offline Osvaldo de Banfield  Argentina
diyAudio Member
 
Osvaldo de Banfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Barrio Garay,Almirante Brown, Buenos Aires, Argentina
No one element in Physics is composed of only one thing. Capacitors aren't an exception. A capacitor is a pair of sheets of conducting material (metal) and a pir of sheets of insulating material (Non conductive) usually rolled to save space. So it is a complex mix of natural capacitance plus inductances and resistances (a conductance in parallel because of leaks in insulating materials), a resistance in the metal sheets and the wires, and inductance of the rolled conductors. So, depending on how they're manufactured, the entire set of this components will change, and as it behaves as a complete filter network, the behavior in the final circuit will be naturally different using different capacitor kinds.
__________________
Osvaldo F. Zappacosta. Electronic Engineer UTN FRA from 2001.
Argentine Ham Radio LW1DSE since 1987.
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 01:15 PM   #6
indianajo is offline indianajo  United States
diyAudio Member
 
indianajo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Jeffersonville, Indiana USA
Having changed electrolytic caps in equipment I like as often as 4 times (ST70), I detest the things. In the case of a Hammond organ I scrounged the swap papers for for 30 years before finding one I could afford, I changed a lot of electrolytics for ceramic (10 uf 50 v) or polyprophylene (50 uf 600 v). This organ had 115 e-caps, all of which were causing bad sound, non-functioning features (attack, string bass) or random times (key sustain) . In all cases performance was the same or better. I've since purchased an identical model with e-caps replaced professionally before I bought it with factory parts. In the case of the main B+ supply, the polypros cause more volume and bass punch. (but they are huge, required a separate chassis to house). In the case of the attack, the ceramics sharpened the effect and made something that sounds to me like a fender-rhodes "piano" which is quite useful. I'll be mostly using industrial long life e-caps in future as this is a lot easier since they fit in place. In fact 10 uf 50 v CPO ceramic caps are no longer stocked by any distributor - I'd have to buy 1000 to get any. But the organ as upgraded is fun.
__________________
Dynakit ST70, ST120, PAS2,Hammond H182(2 ea),H112,A100,10-82TC,Peavey CS800S,1.3K, SP2-XT's, T-300 HF Proj's, Steinway console, Herald RA88a mixer, Wurlitzer 4500, 4300
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 05:31 PM   #7
Mr Evil is offline Mr Evil  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Behind you
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloth Ears View Post
...Are there any places where an electrolytic is simply the only option, or is it always a price versus performance thing?..
There are places where you need to use a particular type of capacitor. For instance, in the datasheets for some voltage regulators there might be a requirement that the output capacitor have a certain ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance), or that it be of a certain type (which is just a way of indirectly specifying ESR, since some types have high or low ESR compared to others). If you use the wrong type for such a regulator, it might oscillate due to lack of damping.
__________________
https://mrevil.asvachin.eu/
  Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 05:42 PM   #8
mchambin is offline mchambin  France
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloth Ears View Post
Hi,
except for soldering passive crossovers together, basically I'm a lost cause.
Think twice after you have a look at the PCB.
When cheap or corroded from old age, unsoldering is a high risk task.
Tracks will pull off, soldering will be difficult, asking for more heat and flux, the latter aggravated by the bone heads that banned leaded solder.
Thin tracks, corroded, no lead solder can turn into a nightmare.
Thanks to the said bone heads, now we have failures from solder joints that grow whiskers to end up making shorts, but who cares, most of electronics will be obsolete, hopefully earlier, typically, two days after the the end of guaranty.
__________________
Transistor junction temperature is not transistor case temperature.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th May 2019, 09:50 PM   #9
Cloth Ears is offline Cloth Ears  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Cloth Ears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Gents (and/or ladies),

Thanks for the responses. When I finally find one of these units I'll have a look at the thing as a whole before I start any fiddling. To be honest, the only reason I can see for replacing an electrolytic is that it could be old and starting to fail (I've read two stories about this in the Delilah - even though it's not that old).
But the owner of this other unit had obviously replaced these in the signal path (and got new electrolytics for the power supply) without detrimental effect.

I'll start with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and work up from there. Once I get it in my hands and take it's clothes off, I'm hoping to see an easy way to change the crossover points (from memory 50, 63, 80, 100, 120Hz) to hopefully 40, 50, 63, 80, 100Hz. But, I reckon that anything would be better than the Behringer I've currently got doing the job.
__________________
Jont.
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th May 2019, 04:26 PM   #10
speaker is offline speaker  United States
diyAudio Member
 
speaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Evil View Post
There are places where you need to use a particular type of capacitor. For instance, in the datasheets for some voltage regulators there might be a requirement that the output capacitor have a certain ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance), or that it be of a certain type (which is just a way of indirectly specifying ESR, since some types have high or low ESR compared to others). If you use the wrong type for such a regulator, it might oscillate due to lack of damping.
I'll add, swapping capacitors in the tweeter circuit of a loudspeaker may take you in the opposite direction you want to go. If the speaker designer was competent, the ESR of the capacitor was factored into the final sound and changing that may cause imbalance. This happens primarily where an electrolytic is swapped for a low-ESR film. If there was a series pad the value may need to be increased and if none there at all, one added. Sometimes the imbalance is good though and more treble output beneficial.

YMMV...
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Capacitor &quot;rolling&quot; questionHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question regarding use of an 18" or larger Bass unit in a "Transmission line" enclosu darkmatter Full Range 12 12th December 2017 09:20 PM
Peavey Classic 30 "bright cap" question - "blue guitar" scorchedcortex Instruments and Amps 10 13th September 2017 12:07 AM
Question about "old" technology: the wiiide baffle of the Boston Acoustics "A" series River757 Multi-Way 28 26th September 2015 12:34 PM
Capacitor on "ground" interconnection to block "ground" DC voltage wwenze Analog Line Level 2 14th March 2015 05:00 PM
BLACK GATES BRAND NEW CAPACITOR 100uF 100V "FK" SERIES merlin el mago Swap Meet 22 21st July 2013 10:22 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:44 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.79%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki