Hi,
I should mention from the beginning that I'm not able to build electronics - I realised this from an early age. I can understand the concepts, but except for soldering passive crossovers together, basically I'm a lost cause.
So with that in mind...
I've seen a few pieces of equipment where capacitors have been upgraded. In almost all cases, this has been type for type (electrolytic for same, etc). But in some cases, I've see electrolytics replaced with polypropelene and the like.
Is this possible throughout a piece of equipment? Could you, for example, even build a power supply using polyprop caps (yes, expensive and yes, lots of space required)? Are there any places where an electrolytic is simply the only option, or is it always a price versus performance thing?
Specifically, I saw a Sumo Delilah, where the standard 10uF caps had been replaced by Jantzen Z-Standards, but the 47uF ones were replaced by Nichicon Muse BP (even though you could probably grab some non-electrolytic caps for about the same price). And the power supply was still electrolytics - just better ones.
If this is addressed somewhere else, just point me that way.
Thanks
I should mention from the beginning that I'm not able to build electronics - I realised this from an early age. I can understand the concepts, but except for soldering passive crossovers together, basically I'm a lost cause.
So with that in mind...
I've seen a few pieces of equipment where capacitors have been upgraded. In almost all cases, this has been type for type (electrolytic for same, etc). But in some cases, I've see electrolytics replaced with polypropelene and the like.
Is this possible throughout a piece of equipment? Could you, for example, even build a power supply using polyprop caps (yes, expensive and yes, lots of space required)? Are there any places where an electrolytic is simply the only option, or is it always a price versus performance thing?
Specifically, I saw a Sumo Delilah, where the standard 10uF caps had been replaced by Jantzen Z-Standards, but the 47uF ones were replaced by Nichicon Muse BP (even though you could probably grab some non-electrolytic caps for about the same price). And the power supply was still electrolytics - just better ones.
If this is addressed somewhere else, just point me that way.
Thanks
The Nichicon Muse UES-series of bipolar caps cause no audible distortion as far as I can measure (Audio Precision APx525). Many "audiophile" capacitors actually measure worse than non-audiophile equivalents. Basically, the audiophile capacitors are further away from an ideal capacitor than a generic part at significantly lower cost.
There's nothing really that prevents you from putting 1000 10 uF polypropylene capacitors in parallel to form your 10000 uF supply cap. The cost will be astronomical, it'll weigh a ton, and take up a lot of space. It'll also likely have worse parasitics than an electrolytic cap due to all the wiring between the capacitors.
Using polypropylene (or Nichicon UES) caps in series with the signal makes sense. Elsewhere, you're not likely to see an effect.
Tom
There's nothing really that prevents you from putting 1000 10 uF polypropylene capacitors in parallel to form your 10000 uF supply cap. The cost will be astronomical, it'll weigh a ton, and take up a lot of space. It'll also likely have worse parasitics than an electrolytic cap due to all the wiring between the capacitors.
Using polypropylene (or Nichicon UES) caps in series with the signal makes sense. Elsewhere, you're not likely to see an effect.
Tom
This issue comes up in multiple threads.
You can often replace caps with different caps. In most cases this will result in no change. In some cases you might get slightly better performance. In some cases you will get worse performance. Replacing caps is generally done by people who are graduating from changing cables, once they have learnt how to solder.
You can often replace caps with different caps. In most cases this will result in no change. In some cases you might get slightly better performance. In some cases you will get worse performance. Replacing caps is generally done by people who are graduating from changing cables, once they have learnt how to solder.
No one element in Physics is composed of only one thing. Capacitors aren't an exception. A capacitor is a pair of sheets of conducting material (metal) and a pir of sheets of insulating material (Non conductive) usually rolled to save space. So it is a complex mix of natural capacitance plus inductances and resistances (a conductance in parallel because of leaks in insulating materials), a resistance in the metal sheets and the wires, and inductance of the rolled conductors. So, depending on how they're manufactured, the entire set of this components will change, and as it behaves as a complete filter network, the behavior in the final circuit will be naturally different using different capacitor kinds.
Having changed electrolytic caps in equipment I like as often as 4 times (ST70), I detest the things. In the case of a Hammond organ I scrounged the swap papers for for 30 years before finding one I could afford, I changed a lot of electrolytics for ceramic (10 uf 50 v) or polyprophylene (50 uf 600 v). This organ had 115 e-caps, all of which were causing bad sound, non-functioning features (attack, string bass) or random times (key sustain) . In all cases performance was the same or better. I've since purchased an identical model with e-caps replaced professionally before I bought it with factory parts. In the case of the main B+ supply, the polypros cause more volume and bass punch. (but they are huge, required a separate chassis to house). In the case of the attack, the ceramics sharpened the effect and made something that sounds to me like a fender-rhodes "piano" which is quite useful. I'll be mostly using industrial long life e-caps in future as this is a lot easier since they fit in place. In fact 10 uf 50 v CPO ceramic caps are no longer stocked by any distributor - I'd have to buy 1000 to get any. But the organ as upgraded is fun.
There are places where you need to use a particular type of capacitor. For instance, in the datasheets for some voltage regulators there might be a requirement that the output capacitor have a certain ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance), or that it be of a certain type (which is just a way of indirectly specifying ESR, since some types have high or low ESR compared to others). If you use the wrong type for such a regulator, it might oscillate due to lack of damping.
Think twice after you have a look at the PCB.
When cheap or corroded from old age, unsoldering is a high risk task.
Tracks will pull off, soldering will be difficult, asking for more heat and flux, the latter aggravated by the bone heads that banned leaded solder.
Thin tracks, corroded, no lead solder can turn into a nightmare.
Thanks to the said bone heads, now we have failures from solder joints that grow whiskers to end up making shorts, but who cares, most of electronics will be obsolete, hopefully earlier, typically, two days after the the end of guaranty.
Gents (and/or ladies),
Thanks for the responses. When I finally find one of these units I'll have a look at the thing as a whole before I start any fiddling. To be honest, the only reason I can see for replacing an electrolytic is that it could be old and starting to fail (I've read two stories about this in the Delilah - even though it's not that old).
But the owner of this other unit had obviously replaced these in the signal path (and got new electrolytics for the power supply) without detrimental effect.
I'll start with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and work up from there. Once I get it in my hands and take it's clothes off, I'm hoping to see an easy way to change the crossover points (from memory 50, 63, 80, 100, 120Hz) to hopefully 40, 50, 63, 80, 100Hz. But, I reckon that anything would be better than the Behringer I've currently got doing the job.
Thanks for the responses. When I finally find one of these units I'll have a look at the thing as a whole before I start any fiddling. To be honest, the only reason I can see for replacing an electrolytic is that it could be old and starting to fail (I've read two stories about this in the Delilah - even though it's not that old).
But the owner of this other unit had obviously replaced these in the signal path (and got new electrolytics for the power supply) without detrimental effect.
I'll start with "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and work up from there. Once I get it in my hands and take it's clothes off, I'm hoping to see an easy way to change the crossover points (from memory 50, 63, 80, 100, 120Hz) to hopefully 40, 50, 63, 80, 100Hz. But, I reckon that anything would be better than the Behringer I've currently got doing the job.
I'll add, swapping capacitors in the tweeter circuit of a loudspeaker may take you in the opposite direction you want to go. If the speaker designer was competent, the ESR of the capacitor was factored into the final sound and changing that may cause imbalance. This happens primarily where an electrolytic is swapped for a low-ESR film. If there was a series pad the value may need to be increased and if none there at all, one added. Sometimes the imbalance is good though and more treble output beneficial.
YMMV...
...and when you become graduate about caps after spending time to learn it, you become too much deaf to hear any difference !
I will add : in some cases you break the device or the house is firered !
I have used Solen MKP (low ESR) for power supply replacing electrolytics. They didn't sound nice at all. It was a very long time ago. Now I have learnt that: (1) in a power supply there are positions where low ESR is not wanted. (2) there are positions where there is an optimum amount of capacitance wanted. (3) I think there is a complex RLC circuit in a power supply that there is no simple rule of thumb but I feel lucky that I have had a lot of experience from being in your situation.
If your amps have caps on board and you didn't start from the basic elementary amateur DIY audio classes, imo you still have homework to try out caps if you didn't carry the knowledge from those basic classes. (Isn't it Mr Pass who suggested the Silmic as input coupling cap? After learning how to solder?)
Maybe because some can’t hear the difference they then impose the idea that it cannot make a difference upon others, could it be?
What I have found is that sometimes it’s better, sometimes worse, sometimes different, and rarely, no difference at all.
Basic things to note are esr and inductance when starting at attempting improvements with better quality parts. That and to be very cautious buying audio-marketed parts.
What I have found is that sometimes it’s better, sometimes worse, sometimes different, and rarely, no difference at all.
Basic things to note are esr and inductance when starting at attempting improvements with better quality parts. That and to be very cautious buying audio-marketed parts.
As each capacitor has its own LCR components, it is obvious that it will cause different effects in an amplifier (And also in tuner, RF amp, oscillator, etc.). What it is very difficult to understand and believe (Almost for me that am unable to distinguish a tuned guitar from another mistuned) that one cap may sound better than another. In base to what? What is better than?
I’ve almost given up on any notion of what is “better”, just how something reacts in a certain situation or circuit/circumstance, I’m sure it can be complicated given the variables.
That guitar will sound like a real guitar in ether tuned or untuned state. The same sound through some contraption full of wires and parts will most likely not sound anything close, but we keep trying...
That guitar will sound like a real guitar in ether tuned or untuned state. The same sound through some contraption full of wires and parts will most likely not sound anything close, but we keep trying...
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