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Old 20th March 2019, 01:42 PM   #121
Bonsai is offline Bonsai  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
There is a lot more to be a lot more scared about in the Airbus fly by wire setup!


From my position of ignorance, the aviation industry and by inference the global economy needs Boeing to fix the max as quickly as is safe to do so. That plane is needed and if its grounded for 12 months that is going to have some knock on effects that will hurt our pockets and faith in the industry.
I think they are all FBW now or going that way. Personally I don't see that as a problem. I'd be more concerned with cables, pulleys and hydraulics to be honest. And, there's the requirement to reduce weight to improve efficiency as well.

In the early 2000's I was working in the auto industry (supplying power semiconductors - serious reliability demands - ABS, EMU etc) and one of the projects we worked on with a major European tier 1 supplier was electric steering using a motor. The concept was to completely do away with the mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the front wheels.

(I don't know if it ever went into production, but most modern cars have electric steering assist of some sort)
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Old 20th March 2019, 01:45 PM   #122
Bonsai is offline Bonsai  Europe
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Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
Call me a cynic but I refuse to click on a link that describes someone as 'pilot, software engineer and deep thinker'.
Hilarious - agree.


The shameless self-promotion of some types is staggering. (go onto LinkedIn to see some of it for a laugh. Unbelievable)
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Old 20th March 2019, 01:46 PM   #123
traderbam is offline traderbam  Canada
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Out of interest, is it the case that the trim wheels next to the pilots can be manually stopped and turned even if the autopilot is trying to turn them? IOW is it the case that to fix an erroneous trim either pilot can manually adjust (by applying moderate force) the trim wheel even if the MCAS or autopilot are engaged?
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Old 20th March 2019, 01:52 PM   #124
Bonsai is offline Bonsai  Europe
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"I am pretty sure that the so-called 'self certification' which seems to be en vogue these days is the root root cause of these problems. I've seen too much of it."

And especially so when money is involved.
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Old 20th March 2019, 02:18 PM   #125
Charles Darwin is offline Charles Darwin  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by jan.didden View Post
Take the example of a riveter working on a plane. You can't realistically check all 1000's maybe 10,000's of rivets. So how to you make sure the rivets are OK and won't pop over the Atlantic?

You certify the riveter. You select a guy who is a stable individual, never been on substance, off the hard liquor, train him to the best you can, run him through some hard checks and then certify him as 'certified riveter'.
And if he gets sick, replace him ONLY with an equally certified riveter, not some Joe who knows a rivet gun and can fall in for the sick guy for the day.

Make that certificate limited validity, say a year, then again put the guy through hard tests before certifying for another year. That's how you build a plane. Or a sub.
And have an independent inspector in the plant with unlimited access, who has the power to shut down the assembly line if, say, the spray painter cannot show a valid certificate as 'certified spray painter'.

And the same way you certify people and processes, certify the design.

I am pretty sure that the so-called 'self certification' which seems to be en vogue these days is the root root cause of these problems. I've seen too much of it.

Jan
I went through a similar certification process as a welder.
We were making some commercial structures and insurance companies would only insure it if it had been welded by a certified person.
It was the insurance companies which did the certification.
The certification itself became invalid once I stopped welding aluminium pipe of a certain diameter for a year but I was never certified for pipe of over 100mm or below 10mm.
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Old 20th March 2019, 02:20 PM   #126
Charles Darwin is offline Charles Darwin  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by avtech23 View Post
It was a requirement for the aircraft flight manuals to be updated by Christmas 2018 to reiterate the possibility of a runaway trim caused by incorrect sensor data and the actions required to rectify the condition.
Is it ok that the AOA Disagree is only fitted as an option?
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Old 20th March 2019, 02:57 PM   #127
billshurv is offline billshurv  United Kingdom
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Aren't all rivets scanned as well?
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:08 PM   #128
billshurv is offline billshurv  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by Bonsai View Post
Personally I don't see that as a problem. I'd be more concerned with cables, pulleys and hydraulics to be honest.

Air France 447 where they managed to get it in the state where one pilot was pushing the stick and the other pulling and the system averaged it out made me realise that there are still a bucket of edge cases in FBW. A linked control column suddenly seems a really good idea! And yes I am aware that a very specific and unfortunate sequence of events led up to that point which would have been hard to predict.
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Old 20th March 2019, 03:23 PM   #129
randytsuch is online now randytsuch
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Not sure if anybody posted this, but I was just checking production rates, its something like 52 a month. So close to 2 a day, which is crazy when you think about it. They start at around $100 million, depending on the exact model and options chosen. A ton on money they can't collect.

Boeing has to be going crazy right now to fix this problem, they can't afford an extended period without 737 max deliveries.
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Old 20th March 2019, 04:05 PM   #130
AVWERK is offline AVWERK  United States
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Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
Aren't all rivets scanned as well?
A visual inspection covers rivets and any flaws are easily drilled out and replaced if not passed by inspection
In fuel tanks an inspector looks at your work before final sealant coverage of B2

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