Hello all,
First off just wanna introduce myself as this is my first post. Hope to absorb as much good info as I can from you knowledgeable folks, as well as provide some help of my own some day.
So I'm thinking of designing my own line of tube amps. I'm not talking making speaker drivers from scratch or winding my own transformers here (i.e. starting from actual zero) but I am looking to design my own circuits.
With regards to basic, ubiquitous topologies that have been around since the fifties, how much royalties would I have to pay to the original designer? For example: I know the dual rec's basically used the Marshall TMB tone stack in their circuit. Did Mesa have to get a license from Marshall to do that? Or are simple, old-as-time circuits like that just non-licensed because they "just worked" or they've become convention? I just don't want to run into some copyright troubles.
Thanks!
First off just wanna introduce myself as this is my first post. Hope to absorb as much good info as I can from you knowledgeable folks, as well as provide some help of my own some day.
So I'm thinking of designing my own line of tube amps. I'm not talking making speaker drivers from scratch or winding my own transformers here (i.e. starting from actual zero) but I am looking to design my own circuits.
With regards to basic, ubiquitous topologies that have been around since the fifties, how much royalties would I have to pay to the original designer? For example: I know the dual rec's basically used the Marshall TMB tone stack in their circuit. Did Mesa have to get a license from Marshall to do that? Or are simple, old-as-time circuits like that just non-licensed because they "just worked" or they've become convention? I just don't want to run into some copyright troubles.
Thanks!
Cross-copying is rampant in the MI world, everybody copying some Fender feature or another, or some old Marshall one , Marshall being in due time also a Fender design ripper.
In your particular case: Marshall copied Fender Tweed designs, then evolved into the higher gain JCM800, which was heavily improved by Soldano, which was blatantly ripped (and over over over complicated) by Mesa Boogie ... and so on and on.
Morally reprehensible and of course can´t recommend it, but plain observation shows that everybody does it and I have never seen somebody being successfully sued because of that.
It´s hard to patent a particular circuit anyway (and even harder to defend it in Court) unless it has a truly different way of doing things, which in tube guitar amps hasn´t happened since the 50´s or early 60´s, so even if patented it would most probably be Public Domain by now.
As a side note, MB has taken and been granted lots of patents and they pepper their schematics with dire warnings ... but general consense is that they look nice framed and hanging on a wall but would be hard to enforce, since most are heavily based on prior art or show not radical differences in any case.
Just how radically different is adding a 12AX7 gain stage? (by the book example to boot)
Using a mix of fixed and cathode bias?
Using 2 different power tubes in parallel?
Relay switching amp channels?
Yes, Patent Office will usually grant such a patent if worded the way they like ... defending them in Court is a different thing.
My point being: I suggest you build your amplifiers, just go step by step: start cloning a couple old standards , read a lot, study tons of schematics, experiment, and eventually you´ll evolve your own.
Musician ears are the most reliable test instruments
In your particular case: Marshall copied Fender Tweed designs, then evolved into the higher gain JCM800, which was heavily improved by Soldano, which was blatantly ripped (and over over over complicated) by Mesa Boogie ... and so on and on.
Morally reprehensible and of course can´t recommend it, but plain observation shows that everybody does it and I have never seen somebody being successfully sued because of that.
It´s hard to patent a particular circuit anyway (and even harder to defend it in Court) unless it has a truly different way of doing things, which in tube guitar amps hasn´t happened since the 50´s or early 60´s, so even if patented it would most probably be Public Domain by now.
As a side note, MB has taken and been granted lots of patents and they pepper their schematics with dire warnings ... but general consense is that they look nice framed and hanging on a wall but would be hard to enforce, since most are heavily based on prior art or show not radical differences in any case.
Just how radically different is adding a 12AX7 gain stage? (by the book example to boot)
Using a mix of fixed and cathode bias?
Using 2 different power tubes in parallel?
Relay switching amp channels?
Yes, Patent Office will usually grant such a patent if worded the way they like ... defending them in Court is a different thing.
My point being: I suggest you build your amplifiers, just go step by step: start cloning a couple old standards , read a lot, study tons of schematics, experiment, and eventually you´ll evolve your own.
Musician ears are the most reliable test instruments
My second question I guess is, say if I did "borrow" an old idea from say Fender or Marshall (because to be honest, I'm probably not gonna start out re-inventing the wheel) but kept everything else cleverly different, then do I go to the patent office and say, "oh, may I please just apply for a patent for this clever part of the circuit that I designed, and for the rest...well everybody uses those anyways".
I don't want to be a Mesa, or a Marshall, or any big company like that. I just wanna build amps for guitarists that want good sound as a business (which is probably asking for too much in this life lol). I definitely won't go the Mesa route, trying to patent every screw and nut in my amp (which I'll never understand - if you took Marshall to the next level, why would you impede others from doing the same to your design?).
PS I really need a book on how to start a Tube Amp building business lol.
I don't want to be a Mesa, or a Marshall, or any big company like that. I just wanna build amps for guitarists that want good sound as a business (which is probably asking for too much in this life lol). I definitely won't go the Mesa route, trying to patent every screw and nut in my amp (which I'll never understand - if you took Marshall to the next level, why would you impede others from doing the same to your design?).
PS I really need a book on how to start a Tube Amp building business lol.
Lots of good books around, just google that and start buying them.
Money very well invested.
EDIT: as said above, patents are very hard and expensive to defend in Court.
To the tune of hundreds of thousands of Dollars, or more.
So forget about patenting your own, will do you no good unless you can hire the best Lawyers in USA.
For a very good realistic view on patenting:
https://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf
suggestd reading for everybody who is Tech/Business oriented.
Money very well invested.
EDIT: as said above, patents are very hard and expensive to defend in Court.
To the tune of hundreds of thousands of Dollars, or more.
So forget about patenting your own, will do you no good unless you can hire the best Lawyers in USA.
For a very good realistic view on patenting:
https://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf
suggestd reading for everybody who is Tech/Business oriented.
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If I can add a comment from a higher level point of view: you have completely the wrong attitude for business. You have already made up your mind to do it, but you don't even have a business plan yet because you still have not nailed down your costs at all. This is a common mistake in business made by technical people. The truth is, your financials govern the success of your business, and looking at them with some emotional or technical bias is a BAD thing. It's true that technical passion can be harnessed and help to fuel a business, but understand that a change in mindset or diverse help is needed.
The Maritimes, Canada.
Yeah I guess to me it'd be more of a labour of love rather than a lucrative business since I have no know-how in that field.
Scratch the patent thing I guess. My question how do these boutique guys make so much bank selling clones? Do they just have a lot of capital to begin with?
Who says they do?
Not kidding.
Maybe a couple do, not too sure about that.
Most do it as a hobby or "second job" while the main job at some Company, often completely unrelated, say from Finance to IT to selling furniture to .... whatever , is what pays the mortgage, monthly bills, etc. , with the ocassional sale being a bonus.
As Fahey said, not sure which boutique guys you mean. If they were making serious coin, they would be more famous. Some of the more well known ones have a real market niche, such as they will build you an amp per your description (e.g. Vox front end plus Marshall output) or they will build something unique (e.g. ruggedized 5E3 inside a road case). They might sound expensive but how much time goes into a one-of design?
Don’t worry about patents. Build what you believe in. Trust me, your belief in what you design will be all that you will have to go on for quite a while. Starting an audio manufacturing/design business is so hard that you will forget about what circuits you appropriated and so will every one else. Besides, once you actually do a design you will likely change it enough by default to call it your own.
Likewise don’t get any grand dreams about patenting anything yourself. It’s a mountain you won’t have the resources to climb. I know, because I looked into patenting a moving coil head amp I cooked up called Copa. It was just not worth it.
Be ready for a massive amount of work and keep an open mind with the goals you think you have.
Likewise don’t get any grand dreams about patenting anything yourself. It’s a mountain you won’t have the resources to climb. I know, because I looked into patenting a moving coil head amp I cooked up called Copa. It was just not worth it.
Be ready for a massive amount of work and keep an open mind with the goals you think you have.
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My comments are coming from a slightly different end of the tube market, for a long time I owned a tube based audio business that generally lost more money than it made culminating in the disaster of 2000/2001 (internet bubble burst followed by the horror of 9/11).
Practically speaking I lost everything. I had a lot of experience, some talent and more than a decade in consumer electronics.
The points LB made about business plan is on point, but I think you are jumping the gun. Do some homework, study up on some electronics fundamentals, figure out how to build and debug an amp or two. Move on to figuring out how to build them cost effectively in low volumes. If after you have done the basic learning you still want to proceed, find your local SBA Canada and engage them in order to get some basic small business training, develop a good business plan, find capital and a way to reach your market. Otherwise consider it a wonderful hobby.
JM is the guy here who is running a business that caters to a similar market and has lots of experience.
My advice to you is to make it your second source of income until you have something that is working so that you are never going to end up on the ropes financially speaking. That would include identifying downturns and quickly moving to find other things to do to bridge the inevitable gaps in income.
Practically speaking I lost everything. I had a lot of experience, some talent and more than a decade in consumer electronics.
The points LB made about business plan is on point, but I think you are jumping the gun. Do some homework, study up on some electronics fundamentals, figure out how to build and debug an amp or two. Move on to figuring out how to build them cost effectively in low volumes. If after you have done the basic learning you still want to proceed, find your local SBA Canada and engage them in order to get some basic small business training, develop a good business plan, find capital and a way to reach your market. Otherwise consider it a wonderful hobby.
JM is the guy here who is running a business that caters to a similar market and has lots of experience.
My advice to you is to make it your second source of income until you have something that is working so that you are never going to end up on the ropes financially speaking. That would include identifying downturns and quickly moving to find other things to do to bridge the inevitable gaps in income.
If you truly love it, do it.
Honestly, most hifi systems out there sucks donkey balls because they are all made by deaf old people. The audio world always needs young people with fresh ears to make sure the art of making a musical sounding amplifier doesn't die out.
The biggest hint I can give you is that you need to find someone to supply you with transformers. There really isn't a supplier that can make a medium sized lot of high quality transformers in less than 6 weeks.
Hammond is not good enough, edcor has too long of a delay, sowter is good but the international shipping will eat into profit margins or raise the price of your amp too much, and lundhal has their stupid summer break BS which can really cause some serious headaches for businesses.
A lot of companies are either finding their own winding partners, or they are making the transformers themselves.
Honestly, most hifi systems out there sucks donkey balls because they are all made by deaf old people. The audio world always needs young people with fresh ears to make sure the art of making a musical sounding amplifier doesn't die out.
The biggest hint I can give you is that you need to find someone to supply you with transformers. There really isn't a supplier that can make a medium sized lot of high quality transformers in less than 6 weeks.
Hammond is not good enough, edcor has too long of a delay, sowter is good but the international shipping will eat into profit margins or raise the price of your amp too much, and lundhal has their stupid summer break BS which can really cause some serious headaches for businesses.
A lot of companies are either finding their own winding partners, or they are making the transformers themselves.
I remember reading the bio of a prominent tube electronics designer. He was born and educated in Russia. His training was as a Electrical Engineer. He worked here for HP or some similar electronics company. One of his hobbies was building tube hifi gear. The interest of friends and colleagues after hearing his work resulted in him making them copies.
Maybe creating some pieces you think sound good and sharing them with others to see if they like what you are doing? Word of mouth from happy users might be a good stepping stone to doing a business.
Maybe creating some pieces you think sound good and sharing them with others to see if they like what you are doing? Word of mouth from happy users might be a good stepping stone to doing a business.
After reading the very helpful (I'm really glad I signed up to a forum) lot of info from you guys:
I will definitely in the very least pursue this as a hobby, because it really is my passion. I'm just gonna give the business thing a shot. I know it's not often that people's hobbies cross over with their jobs but it is possible.
I will definitely go the safe route and have a main source of income first, then I can try to get the business thing started. Meanwhile I'm still in my 2nd yr of an EETN diploma - still doing a lot of reading and actually working on my first clone (let me know if anyone wants to know about it).
I'll look into the transformers thing, amongst other things that I'll possibly need to source.
I'd even be willing to start out losing money (I'd still have a main job, though), but I just want to see if the few people (or one person even) that bought my product are happy with It's quality and like the sounds it produces. Even that would make me extremely happy. I have a lot of ideas in my head with regards to the different tones all the different amps make. Like, I love the wide open, no NFB modern modes in the dual recs - just huge. But I also love the class A (actually AB) sweet overdriven tones of the matchless DC30 (I debate whether or not the EF86 is worth the microphones though). And there are more that famous artists have done that really intrigue me. Like a JCM 800 with kt88s? Or a cascaded plexiglass (Dookie)? These are some of my favourite amp sounds. I just want to build something of a conglomerate of all the previous (probably not in one amp) but with my own personality ingrained in it. There's fun in building something yourself and seeing the results.
Anyway I'm ranting. Thank you all again. I have a lot ahead of me...
I will definitely in the very least pursue this as a hobby, because it really is my passion. I'm just gonna give the business thing a shot. I know it's not often that people's hobbies cross over with their jobs but it is possible.
I will definitely go the safe route and have a main source of income first, then I can try to get the business thing started. Meanwhile I'm still in my 2nd yr of an EETN diploma - still doing a lot of reading and actually working on my first clone (let me know if anyone wants to know about it).
I'll look into the transformers thing, amongst other things that I'll possibly need to source.
I'd even be willing to start out losing money (I'd still have a main job, though), but I just want to see if the few people (or one person even) that bought my product are happy with It's quality and like the sounds it produces. Even that would make me extremely happy. I have a lot of ideas in my head with regards to the different tones all the different amps make. Like, I love the wide open, no NFB modern modes in the dual recs - just huge. But I also love the class A (actually AB) sweet overdriven tones of the matchless DC30 (I debate whether or not the EF86 is worth the microphones though). And there are more that famous artists have done that really intrigue me. Like a JCM 800 with kt88s? Or a cascaded plexiglass (Dookie)? These are some of my favourite amp sounds. I just want to build something of a conglomerate of all the previous (probably not in one amp) but with my own personality ingrained in it. There's fun in building something yourself and seeing the results.
Anyway I'm ranting. Thank you all again. I have a lot ahead of me...
There's been a lot of good advice offered here by people whose opinions I've grown to respect. About all I have to add is a bit of lame perspective, but I'll do my best.
The upshot of this is that quite a few small-scale audio concerns use this model, too. Some are faring better than others, but I don't seem to recall any in our league achieving what could be called anything but modest commercial success. Most are apparently struggling. In contrast most of the greatest success stories on this forum have been collaborative in nature; the Amp Camp Amp, Baby Huey, AB2 amp are three that spring to mind.
And ultimately that's what this exercise is all about: being honest with yourself and having realistic expectations. More than one good idea in this hobby has "died of a theory". That said, I wish you all the best in whatever direction you choose.
It's not well known that that's exactly how passenger rail worked here in the US until the creation of Amtrak. Back when most consumer goods were moved by rail (remember Old Man Parker's leg lamp in A Christmas Story?), the railroads promoted their freight service by competing fiercely for the passenger trade - constantly one-upping each other by offering better amenities, faster service, etc. Of course, the not-too-subtle implication was that the same level of service applied to a given railroad's cargo as well. But regardless it was always the freight service that was paying, well... the freight.
The upshot of this is that quite a few small-scale audio concerns use this model, too. Some are faring better than others, but I don't seem to recall any in our league achieving what could be called anything but modest commercial success. Most are apparently struggling. In contrast most of the greatest success stories on this forum have been collaborative in nature; the Amp Camp Amp, Baby Huey, AB2 amp are three that spring to mind.
I briefly considered starting a business building custom amps using buyer-supplied circuits. Then I realized I had some experience, even less talent, and zero time in consumer electronics. That's when I decided to return to the basics, learn about what makes for a good circuit, and just enjoy the hobby for what it is.
And ultimately that's what this exercise is all about: being honest with yourself and having realistic expectations. More than one good idea in this hobby has "died of a theory". That said, I wish you all the best in whatever direction you choose.
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Oh here is another tip. Sell direct to consumer. One thing the hifi crowd REALLLLLY struggles with is web stuff and direct sales. Just look at audionotes website. They are a pretty big company and you can't even navigate their web page.
Dealers eat into profits, and generally cause more problems than they solve.
Sell direct to keep the cost down, and just make sure you get samples to reviewers so that you can build brand recognition.
Dealers eat into profits, and generally cause more problems than they solve.
Sell direct to keep the cost down, and just make sure you get samples to reviewers so that you can build brand recognition.
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