Was watching this litte video of the new Solid Stage Logic Fussion unit, used in studios for adding that extra little warmth, and saturation to an overall mix. Watch it here YouTube
I think the "Vintage Drive" section is especially interesting in HiFi context. Listen how it enhances the sound, but without making it sound strange. I would think that by adding just a little to your stereo signal you would gain something similar to "tube sound". I guess this is why people really like Tubes still ... they add harmonic distortion to the signal but in a very pleasing and enhancing way. (probqably getting into trouble for saying that
) So while we are trying very hard to reduce all kind of distortion, when amplifying a signal, which I in general think is necessary to limit harmfull odd order distortion IMD and things like crossover sistortion, Maybe it could be good to the listening experience to add a littel evenorder distortion, especially to the mid to high end.
Also watch this video to see and hear how much difference there is to different tybes of distortion, that is how easily you can actually detect these: YouTube
Anyway, any ideas as to how SSL Fusion vintage drive actually works, and how you could make such a circuit relatively simpel?
I think the "Vintage Drive" section is especially interesting in HiFi context. Listen how it enhances the sound, but without making it sound strange. I would think that by adding just a little to your stereo signal you would gain something similar to "tube sound". I guess this is why people really like Tubes still ... they add harmonic distortion to the signal but in a very pleasing and enhancing way. (probqably getting into trouble for saying that
) So while we are trying very hard to reduce all kind of distortion, when amplifying a signal, which I in general think is necessary to limit harmfull odd order distortion IMD and things like crossover sistortion, Maybe it could be good to the listening experience to add a littel evenorder distortion, especially to the mid to high end.Also watch this video to see and hear how much difference there is to different tybes of distortion, that is how easily you can actually detect these: YouTube
Anyway, any ideas as to how SSL Fusion vintage drive actually works, and how you could make such a circuit relatively simpel?
When I reduce and combat distortion while making total dist THD as low as possible I reduce all sort of dist like ODD harmonies. It is true I also reduce 2nd and 4th.
Without any sort of harmonic dist the music I get is the same as in the recording. If I add 2nd harmonic dist, I do not get the true recording.
My bottomline is: Try to get the THD as low as possible. Do not add any kind of harmonies.
Todays OP-Amps have as low THD as 0.00002% They give you the true experience in sound.
Without any sort of harmonic dist the music I get is the same as in the recording. If I add 2nd harmonic dist, I do not get the true recording.
My bottomline is: Try to get the THD as low as possible. Do not add any kind of harmonies.
Todays OP-Amps have as low THD as 0.00002% They give you the true experience in sound.
I think this is the main difference between Hi-Fi and Hi-End philosophies. I'm I wrong? Goal of Hi-Fi is to achieve a fidelity on the reproduction, so... keep the distortions lower as possible. Goal of Hi-End is to entertain. So... if the sound is more beautiful to the listener anything is accepted, even 2% THD. But I believe also that the "perfect" sound some Hi-Fi systems offer is often too clinic, too my ears.
To make an analogy. Pianos are rarely tuned on a perfect scale, but on a scale with something called musical temperament. If you tune them mathematically they sound terribly bad. I think this is a good analogy to explain this difference.
To make an analogy. Pianos are rarely tuned on a perfect scale, but on a scale with something called musical temperament. If you tune them mathematically they sound terribly bad. I think this is a good analogy to explain this difference.
Sorry it's a very poor analogy because it's tuned to the equal temperament scale, which is mathematical and not "musical"
As Nelson Pass would say: "it's all entertainment"
Jan
I think that is a good statement
And the H2 seems like one good startingpoint, and rather easy to buildThe funny thing is that in the studio they will just add all kind of distortion to make it sound good. A plain reccording will simply sound dull.
And the thing about making sure it will sound just as the recording is of course not obtainale, as you are not listening in the studio where it was recorded, the room is not the same and the speakers are not the same etc. so it will never sound the same.
My thinking is to try out an addition to my power amps, which can be switched in or out if mid/high sounds better with the addition.
Any other suggestions to circuits? What about the Aphex Exciter?
Piano tuning is a poor analogy, as a piano is intended to produce music. An audio system is meant (in my view) to reproduce music.
However, I suppose someone could argue that a piano is meant to reproduce the score and some pianists play like that; all the right notes are played in the right order at the right time, but there is no music.
Personally I prefer music not to be messed about with in the studio.
However, I suppose someone could argue that a piano is meant to reproduce the score and some pianists play like that; all the right notes are played in the right order at the right time, but there is no music.
Personally I prefer music not to be messed about with in the studio.
Accurate reproduction aside it depends heavily on whether you are making music or recording music in a studio or other environment. One is artistic expression and the other is capturing the sound of a performance as accurately as possible. (Depends on the nature of the music being performed and recorded)
Obviously certain forms of distortion in a guitar amplifier or processor may be regarded as mandatory and ideal while for accurate reproduction of the music added distortion isn't necessarily regarded as a particularly good thing.
Obviously certain forms of distortion in a guitar amplifier or processor may be regarded as mandatory and ideal while for accurate reproduction of the music added distortion isn't necessarily regarded as a particularly good thing.
Reminds me of Ravel's description of Bolero as "a piece for orchestra without music"
I cant tell the difference between anything less than 1% distortion.
Having played electric guitar for 44 years I would definitely agree that some distortion is beneficial.
As Nelson Pass would say: "it's all entertainment"
There's certainly something to be said for that. Adding a little H2 can sometimes add the illusion of sound stage (or perhaps: further reenforce the illusion of sound stage). There are certainly some who prefer to add a little "something-something" to the sound. I used to do that and enjoyed the results. That approach works well with some music. As does mixing in a little bit of the left channel signal in with the right channel signal and vice versa (i.e. deliberately degrading the channel separation).
In more recent years, I've been pretty squarely in the "no additions" camp. While the warm and fuzzy rendering of a tube amp can be pleasing, I find I revert to the precise rendering of low-distortion amps more often than not.
Note that harmonic distortion isn't the be-all, end-all measurement. I recommend looking at a family of measurements (THD, IMD, multi-tone IMD, etc.) for a complete picture of a piece of kit. I'd also add that a spot measurement at, say, 1 kHz is not all that meaningful by itself. In my experience, the THD needs to be inaudible (preferably below 0.01%) within the entire audio band.
Tom
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Adding second harmonic distortion, even if negative phase, is just wrong. It may be beneficial to some very simplistic music, but in general, imho, should be avoided.
It is of course not so simple. I would generally trade quite a bit of distortion against the lack of loop nfb, as it often brings benefits far exceeding the increased distortion.
It is of course not so simple. I would generally trade quite a bit of distortion against the lack of loop nfb, as it often brings benefits far exceeding the increased distortion.
There have been threads of this nature come and go over the 13 years that I have been a member here. I can guarantee that I (or most anyone) can make two or three different files, each with 1% distortion, and just about anyone can hear the difference between them. I had these files on my computer, but can't find them now. They are easy to make given some software, a pair of identical clean audio oscillators, or a music synth having at least two sine wave oscillators.
When presented with those files and a few others, with one being a pure 261.6 Hz (middle C) tone, then asked to choose the "best" sounding, the pure tone is rarely chosen.
The files:
261.6 Hz pure sine wave tone with low distortion.
261.6 Hz AND 523.2 Hz low distortion sine waves mixed in varying proportions, with one being mixed to result in exactly 1% THD. I also made 0.5%, 2% and 3% files.
261.6 Hz AND 784.8 Hz at 0.5%, 1%, 2% and 3% THD.
261.6 Hz, 523.2 Hz and 784.8 Hz mixed as follows. set a level of 261.2 Hz, bring in some 523.2 Hz to result in about 0.4% THD, then add some 784.8 Hz top bring the THD up to 0.5% total. Repeat this to make 0.8 H2 with 1.0% total.
These are all "pleasing tones" with the 1 to 2% H2 only and the lower levels of H2 H3 mix usually winning over a pure sine wave for "sounding best" It's better to do this with a music synthesizer that imparts some dynamics such as a medium attack and a slow decay to the tones, such that they sound somewhat like a musical instrument and not just a tone.
Now make some files that are 261.6 Hz mixed with 1308 Hz or 1831.2 and higher harmonics, or worse, several mixed to result in exactly 1% THD. virtually nobody will pick these files as "best" as they generally sound dissonant......because they are.
Pure H2 is also a "C" note, just played one octave above the fundamental. It will sound good when added with the fundamental in almost any ratio.
The third harmonic falls very close to a "perfect fifth" that is one octave above the fundamental. It is also one element of a triad chord formation, and also sounds pleasing in low to medium amounts.
The fifth harmonic falls far enough from a musical third to create beat notes and begin to sound dissonant if strong enough.
The seventh harmonic is not close to any musically pleasing interval to be liked.
So SOME HARMONIC distortions can be tolerated, and may be preferred over pure tones to some if not most ears.......But, we don't listen to single tones, we listen to music.
Most music will have multiple sounds playing at the same time. Pure HARMONIC distortion does NOT occur by itself. It usually has an ugly friend called IMD. IMD is the mixing products created when two tones meet a nonlinear device. ALL real devices are nonlinear, so some IMD will be generated in them. With few exceptions, most IMD created tones are NOT musically pleasing.
A musical CHORD is two or more musical notes played together at the same time. Most guitar players are familiar with Power Chords. These are chords that have their notes (usually only 2 or 3) chosen such that the IMD products generated are less objectionable than most multi note chords and therefore can be played through a highly distorted amp.
Which is exactly why I'm pushing the use of multi-tone IMD for amplifier testing. I test my amps with AP's 32-tone test signal.
Tom
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