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Veganism
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Old 20th September 2018, 10:31 PM   #21
soulmerchant is offline soulmerchant  Switzerland
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I like meat, but only once in a while. If I eat it too often my gut feels sick. I feel this mostly in the very early morning hours as I awake. If you manage to find a way to listen to your body, you might discover this too.

A few generations ago, meat was for most regular people VERY EXPENSIVE. This is because people then had NO REAL MONEY.

Yes, these people did not live long as frequent disease, war, child birth, social problems caused significant mortality. But their diet usually did not kill them like it does to so many people today... Poor people had no choice but to eat vegetables, and it was actually quite healthy. If these people managed to get by all the huge problems that would otherwise shorten their life, they stood to live a long life.

I feel that reducing meat in diets would help the environment and health. But maybe we need a thread on how plastics are killing the world at even a faster pace? Not to be a pessimist...

Last edited by soulmerchant; 20th September 2018 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 20th September 2018, 10:38 PM   #22
soulmerchant is offline soulmerchant  Switzerland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jean-paul View Post
What about the stunning change to palm oil and hardened palm fat in much (vegan) products? The last years many A branded products changed to this stuff and it is quite destructive for the environment (if not for your health!).
Oh, don't get me started here. Palm oil and palm fat are in so many budget hand-creams, liquid soaps, shampoos, etc too.

And nobody who buys these things is informed at all..... It is disgusting. People, if the hand soap is incredibly cheap then expect that it is made with environment-destroying plantation palm oil .

I would much rather eat a free range eggs for breakfast than shower myself with such soap!

Last edited by soulmerchant; 20th September 2018 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 20th September 2018, 10:49 PM   #23
gerhard is offline gerhard  Germany
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Can palm oil be vegan? In the end, it is indirectly
made from orang-utans.

regards, Gerhard
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Old 20th September 2018, 10:57 PM   #24
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Veganism
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
Here goes: Many animals wouldn't exist at all if they hadn't been bred in order to provide something for us.
That's an old chestnut, Douglas Adams even poked fun of it in Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
But to to answer it fully in a human related way would drag this firmly into politics. Politics of the 19th century (I'll let you deduce).
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Old 20th September 2018, 11:00 PM   #25
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Did he? Oh thanks. But I am actually thinking from the animals point of view, however weird that may sound
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Old 20th September 2018, 11:05 PM   #26
Earl Grey is offline Earl Grey
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Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
Thank you very much for your "ramble", it makes a lot of sense to me. Am I right in assuming suffering is the biggest issue for you? I've tried to talk to vegans about this and 9 times out of 10 ( I'm not exaggerating) all I hear are the words torture and murder
Yes, I think that's about right.

Some of the things visited on factory farmed / industrially slaughtered animals might (rhetorically) be described as 'torture', but systematically there is only indifference to suffering as a byproduct, rather than a sadistic intent to inflict it.
Murder is a similarly charged word - I do believe that animals suffer a 'morally relevant' loss in being deprived of their lives.

And again, I think that even if you feel that way about these things, there's probably a strategy vs tactics aspect that's being missed in using those terms casually.

Re lambs, to play devil's advocate, I'm sure they are often having fun on a Welsh hillside but their overall quality of life rather depends on the farmer, location, and skills of those involved. Some of the hazards include mulesing without anesthetic, premature separation from the ewe, "indoor" lambing, inhumane or dangerous transport conditions, and finally, inadequate stunning prior to being suspended / exsanguinated.

Ultimately, I think the commercial demands of having animal products form a significant portion of our (collective) diets are incompatible with high standards of animal welfare.
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Old 20th September 2018, 11:11 PM   #27
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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The arguments are very similar to some used in the middle of the 19th century United States in regards to a certain class of people. To explain further is off limits on this forum.
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Old 20th September 2018, 11:16 PM   #28
rex_johnston is offline rex_johnston  Norfolk Island
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Leaving aside the ethical aspects of farming, humans are about a million years of evolution away from being a true omnivore. Our digestive system lacks a cecum (now a vestigal appendix) and we cannot digest cellulose (as can ruminants). Unless you are armed with a LOT of human specific dietary knowledge (which even registered dieticians seem to lack), sooner or later, you are going to run into health problems.
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Old 20th September 2018, 11:19 PM   #29
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl Grey View Post

Re lambs, to play devil's advocate, I'm sure they are often having fun on a Welsh hillside but their overall quality of life rather depends on the farmer, location, and skills of those involved. Some of the hazards include mulesing without anesthetic, premature separation from the ewe, "indoor" lambing, inhumane or dangerous transport conditions, and finally, inadequate stunning prior to being suspended / exsanguinated.

Ultimately, I think the commercial demands of having animal products form a significant portion of our (collective) diets are incompatible with high standards of animal welfare.
Sadly this is true. I have seen both extremes locally. My friend Rachel is a sheep farmer and she does an incredibly good job, so good it's not financially viable and she has to subsidise her income with part-time jobs
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Old 20th September 2018, 11:34 PM   #30
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Originally Posted by rex_johnston View Post
...sooner or later, you are going to run into health problems.
True. I still remember the day I died in 1989. It was a beautiful funeral.
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