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Veganism
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Old Yesterday, 08:01 AM   #1581
KaffiMann is offline KaffiMann  Norway
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Veganism
Quote:
Originally Posted by itsikhefez View Post
Majority of crops are fed to animals, not humans. These industries would lose money if people stopped eating meat... they clearly don't have a financial incentive here.
The meat industry in the US is a very big and heavy handed system, I could certainly agree with your perspective if you are indeed living over there.
But there are some major differences in how meat and other animal based produce is made if you look around a bit. making a sweeping generalization (we humans are very good at that, part of our genetically inherited "decision making effectivization" process) based on one particular produce segment in a part of the world where private companies actively fund politicians openly, does not translate to:
The entire world is like that, so all produce in that segment is evil.

Not disagreeing with you, but you mentioned choosing food based on certain certifications. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but even if a specific organisation has very honorable goals, does not mean that every single person in that organization is 100% resistant to "creative thinking".
Food certifications are a big industry now, and a lot of the money involved go to support the organisations, which may be well and good.
But what about local produce? Have you talked to local farmers and greenhouse growers?
Knowing exactly where your food comes from, the people involved and how it's grown is the only way to know for sure if it is done in a sustainable way. And this also carries the bonus of reduces emissions footprint from transport, which is a big problem in the world today. Transporting food from a farm in Country A to Country B and C involves a huge number of loading/unloading to and from a multitude of storages/lorries/trucks/ships/trains etc. The reansport and distribution system in itself is a huge part of an enormous industrial system that nobody cares about, because they do not have to put their names anywhere.
Just a silent gigantic system that makes a lot of money without the negative PR.
The meat industry almost seems to have an additional role in the US, absorbing attention and focus, directing it away from many other things.
And the certification industry goes for the "Positive PR" points.

You mention Financial incentive, your money rules! What you buy and where you spend your money, directly influences what is available and where it comes from.
So I go the route of the Omnivore, but have decided to put great effort in knowing exactly what I eat, and that as much as possible in my daily intake come from within short distance, or a combination of distance/impact assessment, every little bit counts.
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Old Yesterday, 08:10 AM   #1582
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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^ All that you say is obviously true, this is why I continually cite permaculture whenever the environment is mentioned in regard to veganism, it's too simplistic. The focus by vegans on diet and environment is a red herring IMHO.
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Old Yesterday, 09:15 AM   #1583
KaffiMann is offline KaffiMann  Norway
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Veganism
And it's the exact same thing with the emerging insect-protein industries, it is just another segment, another group to market products towards.
Maybe there is something in "you are what you eat", but that can be said and at the same time completely ignore all thought towards sustainability.
I do not separate so much between what is on the table, we need food, everyone can agree on that. But my concern is primarily: Where does it come from, what is the source of this product, which processes have been involved, and where does the money go?

If you go look at the process industry food items, fruit from other countries/other parts of the country(non-local) in the shelves at the local supermarket, the store owners do not make that much profit overall, on some products it's more than others, it evens out somewhat. I'd say the ones making money are the holding companies that have segmented away the food chain under their umbrellas, and rent out buildings and storage facilities to the brand front.
The people on top is looking for ways to make money, diversify enough to encompass as many market segments as possible, to be in control of a positive brand growth while at the same time avoid any PR for themselves.
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Old Today, 04:00 PM   #1584
NATDBERG is offline NATDBERG  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
^ All that you say is obviously true, this is why I continually cite permaculture whenever the environment is mentioned in regard to veganism, it's too simplistic. The focus by vegans on diet and environment is a red herring IMHO.
That's a false argument if you really think about it..

The permaculture part is there when feeding the animals plus the massive inefficiencies of eating meat verses humans eating plants directly.

By becoming vegan you cut that down to just one problem with the source of ones food rather than two problems.

Essentially the crux of that permaculture argument (as it often expressed by others at least) is "unless you are absolutely perfect, then don't tell me my way of living is wrong" ... which is an self centred argument about ego and which probably relates pop-psychologically to the person's childhood angst

The problem with permaculture is about the type of people who get in to that kind of business, people who see the environment as a problem that gets in the way of their profits... you can see this all the time.

The hoovering up of birds was a recent example in the UK press when olives are harvested in the Med (they use massive hoovering machines to suck the olives off the branches.. and they do it at night time for extra profit - something about flavour - which means they kill millions of resting birds every year. But like many farmers they don't give a ****..).

The best the average individual can do is make informed choices and try to lower the profits of the worst offenders or make them chase profit by at least acting with a concience in their business practice (fake it 'till you make it).
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Old Today, 04:06 PM   #1585
NATDBERG is offline NATDBERG  United Kingdom
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Here's an article for us to read - I'm sure we're all heavy metal fans here, right?

Devildriver's Dez Fafara: Why I Became A Vegan - Blabbermouth.net
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Old Today, 05:22 PM   #1586
Galu is offline Galu  Scotland
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Originally Posted by NATDBERG View Post
I'm sure we're all heavy metal fans here, right?
Not when it comes to heavy metal contamination in the soil though!
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Old Today, 08:33 PM   #1587
rex_johnston is offline rex_johnston  Norfolk Island
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NATDBERG View Post
That's a false argument if you really think about it..

The permaculture part is there when feeding the animals plus the massive inefficiencies of eating meat verses humans eating plants directly.

By becoming vegan you cut that down to just one problem with the source of ones food rather than two problems.

Essentially the crux of that permaculture argument (as it often expressed by others at least) is "unless you are absolutely perfect, then don't tell me my way of living is wrong" ... which is an self centred argument about ego and which probably relates pop-psychologically to the person's childhood angst

The problem with permaculture is about the type of people who get in to that kind of business, people who see the environment as a problem that gets in the way of their profits... you can see this all the time.
Nothing you've written here about permaculture makes any sense at all. Perhaps you could look up the definition of permaculture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NATDBERG View Post
The hoovering up of birds was a recent example in the UK press when olives are harvested in the Med (they use massive hoovering machines to suck the olives off the branches.. and they do it at night time for extra profit - something about flavour - which means they kill millions of resting birds every year. But like many farmers they don't give a ****..).
Think about this for a moment. Anything that creates a large enough vacuum to suck olives off trees is going to suck an awful lot more than just olives off trees. In fact, having chopped down hundreds of olive trees, i can definitively tell you that employing a vacuum cleaner on them at any time of year will get you mostly sticks and leaves. The usual method of olive harvesting is to put a catcher underneath the tree and shake it, a time honoured method employed for millions of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NATDBERG View Post
The best the average individual can do is make informed choices and try to lower the profits of the worst offenders or make them chase profit by at least acting with a concience in their business practice (fake it 'till you make it).
I couldn't agree more. This recent article seems pertinent.
Patrick Holden: ‘We’re paying for cheap food with our health and our planet’ – College of Medicine
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