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Old 9th June 2018, 02:07 PM   #11
JMFahey is offline JMFahey  Argentina
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcelvdG View Post
Our Samsung TV came with a calibration CD-R required to get it to produce far more realistic colours than it does with its default settings. The calibration CD-R was not provided by Samsung, but by the shop that sold the TV. You never needed anything like that when televisions still had cathode ray tubes.
You must be quite the newcomer to say so, or never ever involved in the TV Servicing area.

Calibration was VERY MUCH needed in Analog TVs, doubly so because adjustments "shifted" over time.

In the early 80´s I built an Elektor version of this:
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which was light years more advanced compared to what I had inherited from an old TV Tech, the Argentine version of:
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would have loved this but Importing one was too complicated/expensive:
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they were most necessary to turn this (if you were lucky, might have been way worse):
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into something like this:
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Old 9th June 2018, 02:16 PM   #12
scott wurcer is offline scott wurcer  United States
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Originally Posted by spaceistheplace View Post
I’m simply saying that the path to realism is not only linked to high resolution of the playback format.
Film is art, "touching up" the cinematographer's work is no different than colorizing classics like The Maltese Falcon. I find most of what's going on in video (re: films) these days horrifying and unwatchable except as entertainment. Film also has a noise floor with somewhat a stochastic resonance effect which is destroyed by the noise reduction blocking effects of compression. The 4K TV's increased color gamut (which adds unnatural colors at will) and even more DSP only makes thinks worse IMO.

Even rarer than audiophiles into master tapes are film buffs into actual film, usually 16mm prints (anamorphic versions do exist).

I disagree about CRT's, edge to edge convergence was often a nightmare and the color gamuts were never a perfect match. In never owned anything but Sony Trinitrons which did the best IMO. That and a high end VCR were pretty good together (remember 1980's tapes were often $75 or more and ~$5 a day rental). Limited run time hurt beta but there were never as many pre-recorded titles available and of course virtually no porn.

AFAIK - The studios archive films as individual uncompressed frames and as of 10yr. ago were seeking a vendor to make a 100's of MHz tape player.
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Last edited by scott wurcer; 9th June 2018 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 9th June 2018, 05:14 PM   #13
VenusFly is offline VenusFly  Australia
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Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
AFAIK - The studios archive films as individual uncompressed frames and as of 10yr. ago were seeking a vendor to make a 100's of MHz tape player.

Nice. Wish they would release a consumer version intended for 4K or 8K uncompressed.
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Old 9th June 2018, 05:31 PM   #14
MarcelvdG is offline MarcelvdG  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by JMFahey View Post
You must be quite the newcomer to say so, or never ever involved in the TV Servicing area.

Calibration was VERY MUCH needed in Analog TVs, doubly so because adjustments "shifted" over time.
I'm old enough to remember late-1970's/early 1980's Philips colour televisions with a panel with dozens of trimmable devices (mainly inductors) to trim out all kinds of abberations of the picture, but a normal user was not supposed to touch any of those. They came properly calibrated from the factory, and the only thing the user had to do, was to reduce the colour saturation.
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Old 9th June 2018, 06:18 PM   #15
Galu is offline Galu  Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
I find most of what's going on in video (re: films) these days horrifying and unwatchable except as entertainment. Film also has a noise floor with somewhat a stochastic resonance effect which is destroyed by the noise reduction blocking effects of compression. The 4K TV's increased color gamut (which adds unnatural colors at will) and even more DSP only makes thinks worse IMO.
The OP asked why there was a quality disclaimer printed on his CD. Perhaps, in regard to watching films, a similar rider should be attached to a 4K TV.

"The quality of the original image has been preserved as close as possible, however due to its high resolution, the 4K system can reveal limitations of the source film."

If such a disclaimer can be applied to digital CD, then it can equally well be applied to digital TV!
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Old 9th June 2018, 06:27 PM   #16
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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new tvs need to be adjusted to look right. Of course crt tvs needed calibration. But with NTSC ( never the same colour twice ) it only mattered so much. It also drifted. Where I live the OTA HD channels look great, ( and sound good ) and no one would say it's worse than NTSC. If you want to see full quality 1080 HD get bluray and a good looking movie ( Dark Night ). 50 gig for 3 hours. As far as motion goes, good analog tv was always shot on film at 24 fps and then ( for NTSC ) telecine to tv at 30fps. So every 3rd frame was repeated. No one ever noticed the stutter. (Pal just shot the film at 25fps or stretched the content by 25/24s
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Old 9th June 2018, 06:52 PM   #17
scott wurcer is offline scott wurcer  United States
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Originally Posted by VenusFly View Post
Nice. Wish they would release a consumer version intended for 4K or 8K uncompressed.
There is no ports or buss on a PC that could support that, the only devices known are essentially one offs that cost who knows what. That's 5.096G bits per second for 8bit color and I never did find out if they ever found anyone to make a 1x player. The proposal was to coat 2" tape with DVDR material and run it at insane inches per second past a special laser scanner, frankly the whole thing seemed pie in the sky to me.

The scanning is very slow, I got to see some done in India for HD commercials.
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Old 9th June 2018, 07:01 PM   #18
scott wurcer is offline scott wurcer  United States
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Originally Posted by Galu View Post
"The quality of the original image has been preserved as close as possible, however due to its high resolution, the 4K system can reveal limitations of the source film."
I meant the opposite the disclaimer should read, "The advances in technology don't necessarily reproduce the original intent of the artists involved." Frankly serious film buffs consider almost all video to be like listening to nothing but 128K MP3's
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Last edited by scott wurcer; 9th June 2018 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 9th June 2018, 07:03 PM   #19
Cal Weldon is offline Cal Weldon  Canada
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I was pleased with what the calibration (in home service) did to the pic on mine. Quite the process. Took almost an hour.
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Old 9th June 2018, 07:21 PM   #20
spaceistheplace is offline spaceistheplace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
Film is art, "touching up" the cinematographer's work is no different than colorizing classics like The Maltese Falcon. I find most of what's going on in video (re: films) these days horrifying and unwatchable except as entertainment. Film also has a noise floor with somewhat a stochastic resonance effect which is destroyed by the noise reduction blocking effects of compression. The 4K TV's increased color gamut (which adds unnatural colors at will) and even more DSP only makes thinks worse IMO.

Even rarer than audiophiles into master tapes are film buffs into actual film, usually 16mm prints (anamorphic versions do exist).

I’ll count myself as one of them.

A family member of mine is a noted cinematographer, and ~20 years ago I remember a discussion about why he continued to use all the old Panamax stuff when digital was taking over all the sets. Everyone at the table (family, not film folks) thought he was a bit ridiculous, perhaps nostalgic but he said you’d have to pull those tape cans from his cold, dead hands. He likened digital to adding a “second rate cinematographer who doesn’t know what the hell he is doing” (referring to the electronics). Basically, that when you use tape, what you shoot winds up in the tape, when you use digital what winds up on the tape is what you shoot plus a “digital interpretation” of the image that “fills in blanks where there are none”. Obviously the quotes are from memory but that’s my best recollection.

He went through all kinds of trouble to get those cameras, as the number of them and number of those able to maintain and repair them is dwindling close to extinction. Not to mention the number of projectors and projectionists who still know to play them, the number of which is even lower.

I saw “The Master” when it was toured with the 70mm print and equipment and I will stand by the statement that it was the best image I’ve seen ever produced in any format on any medium. It was truly stunning. The sound was also exceptional. (The film itself is nothing short of excellent as well, if you haven’t seen it I suggest checking it out.)

Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, it’s not all analog fetishism, nostalgia or magical thinking. Sorting that all out requires a level of expertise and professionalism that few have, and so reductionism and drawing erroneous logical connections tends to prevail.

What’s All the Fuss About The Master and 70mm? -- Vulture
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Last edited by spaceistheplace; 9th June 2018 at 07:28 PM.
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