Also my thanks for the time taken.
My next test will involve the measure of proximity effect on an inductor. To wit, it will be to look at the third harmonic distortion created by proximity effect.
The inductor will be air core copper not sure what gauge copper yet.. at least two layers, larger diameter wire will have more than two layers. I will co-wind a second copper wire, a much smaller gauge the will nest in the interstitial spaces between the larger wire. I will wind it with an ID of probably 2.05 inches, as I have a 5 inch long piece of aluminum 2 inch OD that will be destined to be placed inside the coil for eddy loss measurements static as well as during oscillatory motion.
The intent is to drive the large gauge at frequency, compare the tap coil voltage to the drive voltage on the large coil.
The tap coil will measure only the time dependent flux in the coil set. The difference between the two will show the dc resistance of the primary coil as well as any additional losses, for example external eddy losses as well as the wire losses.
Since proximity effect is rate of change related, the expectation is that there will be a third harmonic distortion of the primary coil current because the resistance increases when the current crowds during high current slew rates.
The hypothesis: using a co-wound two coil inductor, the use of the tap coil voltage pickup coil to cancel all magnetic field induced reactances will show a third harmonic signal due to proximity effect. I will tie the two coils at the drive side of the pair, the large wire will return to the amp ground, and the pickup coil will be used to monitor the difference voltage with respect to ground.
When complete, the coil will be sent to someone else who has equipment available to further test. Received the next two 8 inchers...I'm chilling on that for the moment, I still need to try the chem detach of the spider from the frame..using an exacto is killing the spider as it is too well attached to the frame. Either local heat of the frame, or chemistry will be tried. I've also been looking at .025 thick steel, and am thinking of making a laminated plate for the visiton magnet assembly, as well as some method of attaching the basket to the faceplate so that I can remove and replace it. Given how strongly the faceplate sticks to the magnet, I think I could probably get away with no epoxy at that interface. I would need some kind of non ferrous adapter over the ferrite that the basket can be tie to, and it will need an adjustment to align the voice coil. If I make my own faceplate, I can also increase the ID a bit if the co-wound coil increases the vc thickness.
jn
ps. or, you guys could tell me to get lost, and go back to discussing tinfoil hats and zombie lizards...
My next test will involve the measure of proximity effect on an inductor. To wit, it will be to look at the third harmonic distortion created by proximity effect.
The inductor will be air core copper not sure what gauge copper yet.. at least two layers, larger diameter wire will have more than two layers. I will co-wind a second copper wire, a much smaller gauge the will nest in the interstitial spaces between the larger wire. I will wind it with an ID of probably 2.05 inches, as I have a 5 inch long piece of aluminum 2 inch OD that will be destined to be placed inside the coil for eddy loss measurements static as well as during oscillatory motion.
The intent is to drive the large gauge at frequency, compare the tap coil voltage to the drive voltage on the large coil.
The tap coil will measure only the time dependent flux in the coil set. The difference between the two will show the dc resistance of the primary coil as well as any additional losses, for example external eddy losses as well as the wire losses.
Since proximity effect is rate of change related, the expectation is that there will be a third harmonic distortion of the primary coil current because the resistance increases when the current crowds during high current slew rates.
The hypothesis: using a co-wound two coil inductor, the use of the tap coil voltage pickup coil to cancel all magnetic field induced reactances will show a third harmonic signal due to proximity effect. I will tie the two coils at the drive side of the pair, the large wire will return to the amp ground, and the pickup coil will be used to monitor the difference voltage with respect to ground.
When complete, the coil will be sent to someone else who has equipment available to further test. Received the next two 8 inchers...I'm chilling on that for the moment, I still need to try the chem detach of the spider from the frame..using an exacto is killing the spider as it is too well attached to the frame. Either local heat of the frame, or chemistry will be tried. I've also been looking at .025 thick steel, and am thinking of making a laminated plate for the visiton magnet assembly, as well as some method of attaching the basket to the faceplate so that I can remove and replace it. Given how strongly the faceplate sticks to the magnet, I think I could probably get away with no epoxy at that interface. I would need some kind of non ferrous adapter over the ferrite that the basket can be tie to, and it will need an adjustment to align the voice coil. If I make my own faceplate, I can also increase the ID a bit if the co-wound coil increases the vc thickness.
jn
ps. or, you guys could tell me to get lost, and go back to discussing tinfoil hats and zombie lizards...
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Edit: stated incorrectly...
The primary driven coil will show all inductance and all resistances.
The resistance seen will be a sum of the DC resistance of the wire modulated by proximity effect, and the losses caused by any phenomena that is spoken to via magnetic flux. For example, eddy losses in a conductive object brought into the field will be seen by the driven coil as well as the tap coil. Proximity losses in the driven wire will NOT be seen by the tap coil, just by the driven coil.
By subtracting the two, the difference should be the IR losses in the driven coil. This is where I expect to see any proximity effect.
(note, the only caveat to that is, proximity effect will cause the effective radius of the centroids to increase...I am hoping that by putting the tap wire in the interstitial spaces, it will not be too susceptible to the centroid drift..)hmmm. I bet if I put a third tap coil on the outside of the coilset, I might be able to purposely make it more susceptible to centroid drift...have to think about that.
Ed, thankfully you are still up and around. What were you cleaning it with, a backhoe??
No. Proximity effect causes the current within an inductor's turns to shift to one side of the wire. It is essentially the same thing as skin effect, but in a round conductor not close to anything, skinning occurs symmetrically. In a multi turn inductor, the rate of change of the magfield caused by the lots of turns will cause the current to tend to one side of the conductor. This can sometimes be seen on a frequency scan of an inductor, for example the ones in my gallery. An air coil inductor will show as flat up to some frequency, then it will start to decrease as the current starts to shift. When that happens, you can see the resistance also start to increase.
Sometimes this is called skin effect..large inductors run at high frequencies will dissipate more because less of the conductor is actually involved in the transport of current. The correct term is proximity effect, but it is used interchangeably with skin effect. No big deal..
In a gapped toroid for example, when the windings get close to the gap, they will tend to dissipate more because the field lines are seriously "bent" by the gap. Sullivan from Dartmouth College had some good writeups on that, as well as some good write-ups on skin and proximity.
jn
Ooops, is the bandsaw ok ?.
You mean do the job you should have done ages ago lol ?.
Dan.
Hi John, me too I find we are surrounded by fields/couplings and we construct/affect/effect such fields/couplings and such fields/couplings affect/effect us more than the most of us realise. These are interesting - The Fourth Phase of Water and Water, Cells, and Life......I haven't researched much further so I don't know if useful products have come of it or if all his claims are true.
My experiments with Goop™ proximity treatment of red wine are interesting indeed (similar to your zapper ?).....the result is different wine altogether ie different/better/nicer aroma, meniscus, legs, appearance, taste, effect and no after effect (hangover).
Some day I will attempt to photograph but suffice to say the appearance is clearer in the manner that a good diamond or a good ruby has 'super clarity'. This super clarity we know to be from solid material crystal structure behaviours, it seems as though my treatment is setting up an order or 'structure' in energy states in the wine that is also affecting/effecting relationships of the compounds in solution and evaporating. This compounds in solution change effectively 'ages' a wine in 30 mins and yields smoother, sweeter, fruitier, calmer, friendlier and plain more enjoyable wine, win/win I reckon, so does my housemate.
IMO this is actually no different to wine tasting different according to the vessel it is stored in and subsequently served in, ie quality or cheap wine glass, whiskey glass, cheap drinking glass, plastic cup, ceramic cup, silver cup, ss cup, aluminium cup
etc etc just that Goop predictably overrides/sets a new order into any drinking vessel and the water based liquid contained.Beverages distributed in aluminium foil shielded containers like soy milk, juices, soda drinks, wine casks and beer cans distinctly change when decanted to a Goop treated glass container and allowed time to 'realign'.......bottled wine decanting is conventionally 'explained' by oxidation and evaporation, I say this is not the only driver.
And so it is with audio (and video), Goop sets a 'new order' into the system that changes the system intrinsic noise behaviour yielding a new clarity that has 'no signature' though it could be argued that the no signature new clarity is signature in itself......ie the absence of system signature reveals itself as the treated system in ABX.
It turns out any system can perfectly easily be 'tamed' and yield 'good sound' and 'system quality' doesn't matter so much as we might think anymore....and lol the same with wines, pretty much any wine can be 'realigned' to tasting pleasing.
.So, it seems that 'noise' is no such thing, the fields around us are abounding with real time/instant information and it is the intersections/interactions of these fields that we choose to call noise.....or information. If these fields are not constrained/controlled then 'chaos' results, ie if an overiding/dominating foundation local field 'structure' is provided then ADSR of system 'splashing' events is altered and chaos events like 1/f events subjectively diminish and these system changes are perfectly audible.
After 100 years of electrics and electronics we now have audio that is essentially subjectively distortionless or 'blameless' but lacks 'soul'. Modern construction on FG boards with ceramic based SM components and device black epoxy encapsulations all sounds pretty much the same as should be expected, the 'right' 'quantum' filtering can change such circuit behaviours in near to an instant (this is important observation) and render such systems subjectively completely clean and then add character/vibe as desired.
Electronic and audio systems are a whole lot more 'plastic' than we give credit for/realise and being able to predictably dictate system behaviours/tone at will/according to preference is a whole lotta fun, it just takes seeing electrics from a slightly different but complimentary angle to that in text books or data sheets and trusting one's ears (and body).
Dan.
Fascinating - skin effect is commonly (perhaps too commonly) discussed, but I've not heard of proximity effect before! The way inductors are usually closely wound, this might have a greater effect in crossovers and such, so should probably be discussed more often.
Proximity effect (electromagnetism - Wikipedia)
Proximity effect (electromagnetism - Wikipedia)
Hi örjan
here is some analysis that I can dig out from the saved wav waveform.
Measuring conditions:
- sine bursts 1kHz, stepped amplitude from 2.1V to 27.9Vrms, step 0.25dB
- load 6.8ohm, i.e. power 0.65W to 114W
- each burst length 800ms, each space length 600ms
- clipping starts at 25.2V/93W (at THD = 0.024%)
- 1% THD (usual specs value) at >100W approx.
Attached is a THD/power plot and also time plot at maximum level measured (114W) that shows PSU ripple 100Hz modulation leakage into output voltage. At clipping points, feedback looses its control and we can see big reduction of amplifier PSR.
Nothing more to dig out at the moment. The analysis is semi-hand made and extremely time consuming, analyzing burst by burst, so further suggestions will not be accepted, if they are not really revealing ideas.
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Max is channeling KBK et al and posting with that special poetic licence where you can borrow phrases and make up anything you want, I still can't figure out why the claims of "obvious" to anyone, etc. are necessary.
John,
In what has to be a terrible case of coincidence, after reading your comment I received an email announcing this:
Bybee V2 Quantum Signal Enhancer
Can you ask Mr. Bybee how this works? As it is serious money, I would hope for an explanation.
Cheers!
Howie
At least Max has made it clear that his analysis and product have the same intellectual underpinnings and rigour as ley lines, dowsing, and other spiritualist claptrap. He is not talking about electronics or magnetics or even actual wine. Really it is a set of religious beliefs and ought not to be permitted here.
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