Great post.
It's nice to see someone here displaying a real understanding of the whole claims, objectivity and how it really impacts what we debate about.
Classical Indian music is sometimes in the service of classical Indian dance. Shiva Stuti is a devotional dance to Lord Shiva, sometimes called the Destroyer, but also often portrayed as a dancer, whose dance sustains and propels the very cosmos. This is a very fine performance of Bharatanatyam (sp?) by an accomplished classical dancer.
YouTube
My wife used to do Bharatanatyam (Romanisation does vary) and I think that does cloud her views on Indian music. She is far less keen on Southern classical styles than northern ones but still enough out there that we can find things we both enjoy.
The classic 'voice of a sparrow' female vocal preferred is a taste I have yet to aquire as well. But I'm working on it..
The classic 'voice of a sparrow' female vocal preferred is a taste I have yet to aquire as well. But I'm working on it..
Since it's quiet: Funny story about (my awareness of) that video. Nine years ago I was in Bangalore for work, living in a small hotel room for 3 weeks. In the room was one of those glossy "What's On In Bangalore" magazine-like publications. I flipped through it and tossed it on the desk, and I didn't get out much at night. When I was packing to leave, on a whim, I picked it back up and put it in my suitcase, and read it when I got home.
It turned out that while I was there, there had been an Indian Dance Festival taking place, with performances, many free admission, every night in multiple venues. I could have seen a ton of Indian dance had I known! The woman in that video, Anuradha Venkataram, was performing an original piece, and there was a fairly large write-up about her, including a link to her web page which included some videos. So, weeks after I left and half way across the world, I finally saw her perform and was awed by her artistry. How I wish that I had seen her live when I had the opportunity!
It turned out that while I was there, there had been an Indian Dance Festival taking place, with performances, many free admission, every night in multiple venues. I could have seen a ton of Indian dance had I known! The woman in that video, Anuradha Venkataram, was performing an original piece, and there was a fairly large write-up about her, including a link to her web page which included some videos. So, weeks after I left and half way across the world, I finally saw her perform and was awed by her artistry. How I wish that I had seen her live when I had the opportunity!
You must be a "blasé" type.
My last assignment for work was in Hong Kong, last year, and I took an extra week on my own expenses to look around. When I came back, I thanked my employer for a nice retirement present.
Did he blushed with shame ?I took an extra week on my own expenses to look around. When I came back, I thanked my employer for a nice retirement present.
You must be a "blasé" type.
My last assignment for work was in Hong Kong, last year, and I took an extra week on my own expenses to look around. When I came back, I thanked my employer for a nice retirement present.
Well, I was working pretty hard. I walked around a lot in the daytime, but I admit that at least for the first couple of weeks I was nervous about going out on my own at night, as well as pretty tired. And the world cup was on TV!
I did manage to get lost one night after darkness descended rather rapidly. People said I should take a day trip to Mysore, but it seemed kind of far and I could walk 2 blocks from my hotel and see things I had never seen before!Just before I left on that trip I had started building my Linkwitz Pluto loudspeakers, but had to pack everything up and put it away before leaving (small house and the missus wasn't going to be happy working around my mess). On the Linkwitz website there is a gallery of photos by people who have built the Plutos, and one of the builders lived in Bangalore and had his email address on the photo, so before I left I contacted him and asked if I could listen to his speakers while there (since I had never heard Plutos and was mid-build). He agreed, so one night I arranged for a driver from the hotel (actually I asked for a cab but they insisted I take a liveried driver) and gave him the address. Luckily I also had Jay's phone number, so the driver called him a few times after getting lost. Eventually we got there, Jay's house was very nice, his charming wife greeted me, brought us some chilled juice then got out of the way while we ascended to the upstairs "man cave" complete with projection TV, audio gear, computers etc. I stayed a couple of hours while we listened to music and chatted. The driver stayed in the car napping. When I left Jay's house he snapped back awake and only got really lost once on the way back to the hotel. Driver and car for 3 hours cost about $20. Good deal and a nice night out.
I would like to get back to what I am primarily interested in: Accurate reproduction of audio performances.
Many here love music, and listening to various varieties of it far more than I do. Just like some people like to drive their autos for fun. However, for the last 50+ years, I have concentrated on making more accurate playback equipment, mostly electronics, but also speakers, both horn and direct radiator, mixing consoles and analog master recorders. I have dipped into everything but digital, and even there I have done a lot of background work. Now what is my point?
IF you want to judge audio electronics, both analog or digital, you MUST have a tweeter on your loudspeakers. It must extend to at least 20KHz without droop. If you do not, then you cannot hear a number of subtle factors that might improve audio sound quality overall. This includes you, Scott Wurcer, and even you, T! Now, I normally listen without a 'tweeter' like you do, e.g. to my Sequerra Met 7's. I only turn on the Wilson's (that go to 20K) and when I put on the ultra tweeter, 40K seldom, because mostly it is uncomfortable to listen through this system unless the sources are pristine, and in general, they seldom are. The same goes for headphones. There are plenty of high quality headphones that are 'forgiving' like Audeze, etc. No, IF you really want to detect differences, you need quality electrostatic headphones like the STAX. Without such a headphone, you will miss out on subtlety. How do I know? Because I was loaned a pair of Audeze headphones ($1000) to evaluate the OPPO 105 headphone stage, when I was consulting with them. Guess what? The Audeze showed nothing wrong, but the STAX revealed the difference between the normal out and the headphone out. That is why I often use the STAX for serious evaluation, though I cannot be comfortable with them most of the time. The circuits were very similar, BUT the headphone amp loaded the final IC's too much, and it became audible.
Now, there is nothing wrong with listening without a tweeter or using planar headphones, IF you just want to enjoy the music, but don't be surprised if others detect differences in their systems that have a more extended frequency range, and low IM as well.
Many here love music, and listening to various varieties of it far more than I do. Just like some people like to drive their autos for fun. However, for the last 50+ years, I have concentrated on making more accurate playback equipment, mostly electronics, but also speakers, both horn and direct radiator, mixing consoles and analog master recorders. I have dipped into everything but digital, and even there I have done a lot of background work. Now what is my point?
IF you want to judge audio electronics, both analog or digital, you MUST have a tweeter on your loudspeakers. It must extend to at least 20KHz without droop. If you do not, then you cannot hear a number of subtle factors that might improve audio sound quality overall. This includes you, Scott Wurcer, and even you, T! Now, I normally listen without a 'tweeter' like you do, e.g. to my Sequerra Met 7's. I only turn on the Wilson's (that go to 20K) and when I put on the ultra tweeter, 40K seldom, because mostly it is uncomfortable to listen through this system unless the sources are pristine, and in general, they seldom are. The same goes for headphones. There are plenty of high quality headphones that are 'forgiving' like Audeze, etc. No, IF you really want to detect differences, you need quality electrostatic headphones like the STAX. Without such a headphone, you will miss out on subtlety. How do I know? Because I was loaned a pair of Audeze headphones ($1000) to evaluate the OPPO 105 headphone stage, when I was consulting with them. Guess what? The Audeze showed nothing wrong, but the STAX revealed the difference between the normal out and the headphone out. That is why I often use the STAX for serious evaluation, though I cannot be comfortable with them most of the time. The circuits were very similar, BUT the headphone amp loaded the final IC's too much, and it became audible.
Now, there is nothing wrong with listening without a tweeter or using planar headphones, IF you just want to enjoy the music, but don't be surprised if others detect differences in their systems that have a more extended frequency range, and low IM as well.
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@Nez: Watched the video. SWMBO has danced to that song but has since gone off Carnatic music and prefers the northern Indian styles. To me it sounds like the singer and violin player sounded as if they were in different rooms with no click track! Like I said takes some attuning to the style . Or I'm a heathen!
. Or I'm a heathen!That's why you wanted me to try the Decca London cartridge: its bug hump at 10KHz compensating the droop of my Quad ESL57. I did try the HQD configuration at one time, but the dissimilarity of the polar patterns made the experience not a pleasant one.
I wonder why you didn't roll your own headphone amp. I've had this conversation, on and off, with Juerg Jecklin: he wanted a MOSFet direct drive for his Float ES 'phone.
PS.: modern headphones are terrible: I have this Hifiman that acts as a great muffler silencer that makes everything sound the same, more successfully than an ABX box
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Isn't it semi improvised around a raag? It reminds me of call and response@Nez: Watched the video. SWMBO has danced to that song but has since gone off Carnatic music and prefers the northern Indian styles. To me it sounds like the singer and violin player sounded as if they were in different rooms with no click track! Like I said takes some attuning to the style
YouTube creepily recommended this YouTube
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Hehe, yeah, makes you wonder why people waste their time listening to crap. Did you watch the program?
Your comment about click track makes me think you have a issue with timing
Maybe try some Thelonious Monk, he's very flexible, particularly playing solo
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Which model of Audeze?
Jam has LCD-3, and I have LCD-X. Mostly the latter type was using during the development of a popular high end headphone amp. According to Jam, LCD-3 is better for some things, and LCD-X is better for other things. Having compared some dacs and some headphone amps using Audeze, I can say they are pretty revealing of most shortcomings. Seems unlikely they would fail to make audible most shortcomings of Oppo. Stax may be better, but its also more costly.
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What else is a hi-fi system intended for ?
if you are referring to the Dan's files comparisons, I answered that if any differences, they were under the level where I consider it matters. Comparing on my big system, that cut at 16kHz, as well as my the Kef LS50s that go flat to 40kHz. Same résult. Only they all sounded more distorted.
Well, I can only talk for me, I tested my ears 2 days ago: I cut at 12kHz.
Some years ago, I tried to add a tweeter to my big system. I did not enjoyed the little difference (for me, I was 50), despite I carefully adjusted the phase.
My son (15years at this time) told-me it was more shiny but less natural.
And, if any differences are only sensible after 15KHz, what the matter ?
To me it sounds like the singer and violin player sounded as if they were in different rooms with no click track! Like I said takes some attuning to the style
I'm certainly no authority, nor even a big fan, of the music and I won't argue. However I thought the dancing was very good, and someone who actually knows something about it agreed with me
(or at least pretended to, I have seen too many pathetic appeals to authority to assume she wasn't just being polite). The way she holds that Shiva Natarajan pose at the start is impressive.Statue of indian god dancing Shiva Nataraja
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