The piano thing is fraught with problems. The human ear is incredibly sensitive to pitch and relative phase and amplitude changes are not pitch. Tuning one string on an instrument makes a new isolated pitch, even a uA741 can't do that. BTW are we still on jn's image shifts caused by amplifier/cable/speaker/etc. or something else?
Yeah, pretty much any actual musical instrument (tuning forks maybe?) are going to make for imprecise masking experiments. Admittedly, they're far more interesting/fun to me than synthesized pure tones.
I don't know where we are. I thought there were arguments made in ignorance about jitter, and then, at least for me, my reaction to the opamp conference publication from McGill, that (to use a term) is also fraught with problems.
I don't know where we are. I thought there were arguments made in ignorance about jitter, and then, at least for me, my reaction to the opamp conference publication from McGill, that (to use a term) is also fraught with problems.
Only across two octaves at maximum.
Thus J. S. Bach “The Well-Tempered Clavier”.
See On the sensations of tone as a physiological basis for the theory of music : Helmholtz, Hermann von, 1821-1894 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Especially the scholarly footnotes of Alexander Ellis
George
There for a second I saw Seebeck's siren and got hopeful it was the same one that discovered the thermoelectric effect. Sadly.
P.S. that's clearly a copy from UC-Berkeley, one of my rival schools. Not sure I'm allowed to read it.
P.S. that's clearly a copy from UC-Berkeley, one of my rival schools. Not sure I'm allowed to read it.
It’s still on circulation.
On the Sensations of Tone (Dover Books on Music): Hermann Helmholtz: 9780486607535: Amazon.com: Books
I had made a bound photocopy of the old book but when I found the Dover print in 2004, I bought it.
>edit: On Tuning and Temperament there is also this book
https://ia800500.us.archive.org/1/items/tuningtemperamen00barb/tuningtemperamen00barb.pdf
George
Regarding stringed instruments there are basically two issues, 1) temperment, and 2) harmonics of strings are at higher pitches than the simplest theory would predict because string diameter is a factor in real string vibration. The virtual end point of the string is shorter at higher harmonics, so the harmonic pitch will be higher than expected. That is the reason for 'stretch tuning' pianos, to adjust out as much as possible the dissonances due to harmonics of lower strings being out of pitch with the fundamentals of higher strings.
Yes all of this is well known, so why would anyone suggest a physical instrument/mechanical experiment to determine the effects of circuits on the perceived sound? Circuits only produce inharmonic output under pathological conditions such as oscillation at certain loads/levels.
The Bosendorfer is an incredible instrument which I love to play,
sadly not that many times though. The Imperial 290 goes down to
C0! That is an extra octave in the bass. I've written music that can
go that low and with it you get that extra umph! which no other piano
can accomplish.
Some say it can be harsh and jarring...well yes when you want that and
juxtaposed against the beautiful harmonics and melodies of its timbre--it just doesn't
get much better.
Moving along, what are we attempting to mask?
PostScript: While many give kudos to the pianist, the drawback is that
it isn't portable. You end up playing on a bunch of out of tune instruments
that haven't been taken care of and have crappy heavy actions that haven't
been adjusted, missing and broken ivories/plastics Even at many music schools!
Unless you are a concert pianist and have endorsements....then you should always
bring your own stool, etc, etc and tuning tools, and on and on.
PostPostScript: Then every no and again you just might find an instrument sitting
somewhere that just plain works! Unlike guitar or bass or other instruments that
aren't so difficult to carry with you.
sadly not that many times though. The Imperial 290 goes down to
C0! That is an extra octave in the bass. I've written music that can
go that low and with it you get that extra umph! which no other piano
can accomplish.
Some say it can be harsh and jarring...well yes when you want that and
juxtaposed against the beautiful harmonics and melodies of its timbre--it just doesn't
get much better.
Moving along, what are we attempting to mask?
PostScript: While many give kudos to the pianist, the drawback is that
it isn't portable. You end up playing on a bunch of out of tune instruments
that haven't been taken care of and have crappy heavy actions that haven't
been adjusted, missing and broken ivories/plastics Even at many music schools!
Unless you are a concert pianist and have endorsements....then you should always
bring your own stool, etc, etc and tuning tools, and on and on.
PostPostScript: Then every no and again you just might find an instrument sitting
somewhere that just plain works! Unlike guitar or bass or other instruments that
aren't so difficult to carry with you.
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speaking of side notes..... in a large piano store with concert grands of several brands and everything in between...…. I played and listened to the sound of the lower freq keys on many of them. I was surprised that they all sounded very different. The salesman said though all the pianos can be in recent tune - the bass was the hardest to tune and keep in tune. No matter what the price or quality.
Whats the reason for that? Is it because the strings are constantly stretching and changing length? OR? Is it also a reason there isn't much music written that includes the lower registers?
The lower end was all over the map..... even Steinways vs Yamaha concert grands. Very lumpy in tune down there. Up and down and all around. Weird.
THx-RNMarsh
Whats the reason for that? Is it because the strings are constantly stretching and changing length? OR? Is it also a reason there isn't much music written that includes the lower registers?
The lower end was all over the map..... even Steinways vs Yamaha concert grands. Very lumpy in tune down there. Up and down and all around. Weird.
THx-RNMarsh
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That is because of a set of music composition rules every music school graduate is supposed to memorize. It is the practice of 'voice leading.' The term is a more or less direct word translation from German, where the meaning is different than in English. It refers to melody or concurrent melodies where it sounds as though one note leads to the next and thus is perceived as a melody. The rules are to make it sound like each of the melodies occurring at more or less the same time, perhaps intertwined, are heard as distinct from one another and are heard as melodies rather than random successions of notes, or maybe meaningless jumbles of concurrent notes. The rules go back to the melodic practices of Bach, but more recent research has shown there are good scientific reasons for following the rules , among which is to avoid problems from frequency masking.
For more information, please see, "Voice Leading - The Science Behind a Musical Art," by David Huron.
For non-melodic notes, such as concurrent notes in chords, masking does occur. Most people hear the the top note in a chord, which usually tends to be the note that most grabs listener attention. The hardest notes to hear in a chord are usually those buried in the middle, frequency-wise. It takes a lot of practice to learn transcription, part of which is to learn how to hear middle pitch notes that are masked.
Most pianos in a home situation need to be tuned once or twice a year, even if sitting unused. Concert pianos are usually tuned up a bit every time they are transported to a stage and then as needed after that if they are played for more than one event. Perhaps it could be that pianos in stores get too much abuse, or that it costs too much to keep them all well tuned all the time. There are more than 200 strings in one instrument to keep in tune since some of the key hammers strike two or three strings at once. The bass notes all use single strings though.
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Can anyone come up with any rational basis for these (aside from separating customers from lots of money): Nordost QKore Grounding System | The Absolute Sound
JN or Richard may be able to come up with something but I just see a ground loop enhancer.
JN or Richard may be able to come up with something but I just see a ground loop enhancer.
If a piano is new, the strings take years to settle in. The steel in the strings stretches and they go out of tune. Then if a piano is allowed to stay out of tune for a long period of time, years for instance, the strings will become indented where they are held (interfaced to/with) on the sound board and trying to tune it properly will be very difficult.
I've found that the middle C area, +- 1 to 1.5 octaves is critical and has to be carefully intonated and tuned. Especially if one different chords than most music.
Richard, depending on the stores location, I would guess the store tuners spent their time in the middle area of the keyboard. Going down in bass notes, the strings go to two strings, then to one string. These are very long strings and wrapped.
Unless the pegs slip or the string stretches they should stay in tune fairly well.
As any of you guitarists or bassists know, when you restring your instrument they will go out of tune fairly quickly until the strings take their set. This set can be done fairly quickly if you use a wooden dowel or piece of drumstick and press gently on either side of it with your fingers, then move it along the fretboard to stretch out the different parts of the strings. When you tune it up, then the tune will last longer that playing on new strings.
The hard thing about tuning piano is training your ear to hear the beats between the frequencies. At least I think it is. Of course, you are only supposed to tune the outer two strings and not the center string. (Don't ask me how I know). Then you have to start all over and reset the piano's temperament. It took me months. Oh to have a good tuner who's also a player.
Generally, Piano Servicing, Tuning and Rebuilding from Arthur Reblitz is good reference: LINK
Cheers and happy playing,
I've found that the middle C area, +- 1 to 1.5 octaves is critical and has to be carefully intonated and tuned. Especially if one different chords than most music.
Richard, depending on the stores location, I would guess the store tuners spent their time in the middle area of the keyboard. Going down in bass notes, the strings go to two strings, then to one string. These are very long strings and wrapped.
Unless the pegs slip or the string stretches they should stay in tune fairly well.
As any of you guitarists or bassists know, when you restring your instrument they will go out of tune fairly quickly until the strings take their set. This set can be done fairly quickly if you use a wooden dowel or piece of drumstick and press gently on either side of it with your fingers, then move it along the fretboard to stretch out the different parts of the strings. When you tune it up, then the tune will last longer that playing on new strings.
The hard thing about tuning piano is training your ear to hear the beats between the frequencies. At least I think it is. Of course, you are only supposed to tune the outer two strings and not the center string. (Don't ask me how I know). Then you have to start all over and reset the piano's temperament. It took me months. Oh to have a good tuner who's also a player.
Generally, Piano Servicing, Tuning and Rebuilding from Arthur Reblitz is good reference: LINK
Cheers and happy playing,
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I don't have the issue anymore but there was a marvellous interview in the 90s in stereophile with a top piano technician and was fascinating to see the amount of work required to voice a piano for a particular piece and performer. And of course how most of the time its not possible to fully optimise this.
As a piano tuner.... tuning a piano is a matter of counting differences at the 2nd and third harmonics, just as is tuning a guitar. The bottom octave in particular is difficult simply because the numbers of Hzs is so slow that you can't really count them, and the top is also difficult because the frequencies are so fast that you can't count them.
The tuning note in a group or in an orchestra is never played on a piano but on a wind or a bowed string instrument. The worn out joke within orchestras is “pianists are deaf” ( victims of the fact they can not retune the piano at the spot as the other musicians do with their instruments during a play session)
Piano tuning was in the curiculum at the schools for the blind
George
Piano tuning was in the curiculum at the schools for the blind
George
Masking is not as simplistic as people think - look into "comodulated masking release (CMR)" - this pyschoacoustc phenomena is observed in nature where lots of sounds amplitude modulate with one another.
CMR occurs when a tone of a certain frequency is masked by an amplitude modulated masker at that same frequency (or in the same critical band) & a different frequency tone is being amplitude modulated in coherence with the masker's amplitude modulation - the audibility threshold of the tone being masked is reduced
In other words the audibility threshold of a masked tone is lower when a different frequency tone is amplitude comodulated with the masker
"Comodulation masking release (CMR) enhances the detection of signals embedded in wideband, amplitude-modulated maskers. "
Physiological Correlates of Comodulation Masking Release in the Mammalian Ventral Cochlear Nucleus | Journal of Neuroscience
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