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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Old 12th November 2018, 05:49 PM   #9491
billshurv is online now billshurv  United Kingdom
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Originally Posted by Jakob2 View Post

Instead it is not unreasonable to assume that humans more interested in audio quality are engaging in such a special interest group and that indeed a higher percentage have better listening abilities.

I am not sure that is not unreasonable. To me that is a huge assumption and one I am not sure that holds. Look at how many people come on asking where they can get training for becoming a better listener. To me it is like saying that opticians would be expected to have better vision.




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Again, as stated before, i understand a lot of these concerns (even share some often), but from an objective point of view, these more extreme examples were provided but as we all know, it isnīt different in case of less extreme claims.
And any attempt to provide some experimental evidence is ridiculed, negated, belittled, and if all that does not help it simply will be ignored as if it never has happened.

Again i donīt see any sense in the demand of "blind tests" - in fact it seems now really to be a demand of "ABX Foorbar style" - if only negative results were accepted.
By not explaining to potentially testers what the pitfalls are and giving advice how to avoid these, it is more like a "cargo style" testing than interest in good experiments delivering (most of the times) correct results.
The extreme cases though are very vocal on here, you must admit. And whilst people are emboldened by the anonymity of the internet there comes a problem filtering fact from fiction. If there is no remote test that allows people to demonstrate if they can or cannot hear something we might as well just give up kick back and enjoy the music as nothing good will come from any discussion on here. I personally have no axe to grind wrt Foobar, but I also reserve the right to not trust any full sighted reports on audibility.





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@billshurv,

"couldnīt tell a strad from a cheapy" means i think being unable to distinguish, but that wasnīt the outcome of these experiments done by Fritz et al.

Afair "telling them apart" was no problem but choosing one of the participating "strads" as favourites was a problem.

Btw, "cheap" was none of the participating instruments ...
when the difference between the new and the strads was around 100x if the Strad is good value then the modern creations are 'cheap' :P. And note this was just in response to the quote taken from a PhD these saying
Quote:
An
example would be the inability of even the finest instrumentation being able to quantify
the difference between a Stradivarius violin and a more modest instrument
. I personally think that was a daft statement to put in a thesis, but that's just me.



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Otoh, with all due respect, if you are concerned of unsupported claims, you should not post so often about differences that must be easy to detect in a "Foobar ABX" if a perceptable difference exists.

(*) Nevertheless there is some evidence given by the experimental results published by Oohashi et al. and the authors of several follow up studies.
Soloudre published some interesting results on the topic of intrachannel phase differences at higher frequencies in the audio band, that might of interest.

If that all is of much relevance for normal recording/listening is another question, but bringing in another low pass is always easy while bringing back something that was not recorded might be more difficult.....
Ok I don't recognise myself in the bolded comment. I don't remember saying that and if I did am embarrassed with myself for doing so.
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Old 12th November 2018, 05:52 PM   #9492
billshurv is online now billshurv  United Kingdom
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Originally Posted by DPH View Post
The one place where "grandpas with tinnitus" is inarguably a limitation is in hearing the top registers.

I've got tinnitus and I'm not even a grandpa
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Old 12th November 2018, 05:54 PM   #9493
DPH is offline DPH  United States
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Originally Posted by spaceistheplace View Post
If you notice, the child is the one who clearly registers the mastery of the player, who is playing a priceless strad for free in a DC subway.

The musician was playing a sold out performance later in the week for $400 a head or thereabouts.

He made something like $11 in loose change.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifes...e5f_story.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZeSZFYCNRw
To discuss that little social experiment in pretty much any context beyond the difficulty by which the average, stressed, and overworked individual has to "stop and smell the roses" is pretty ridiculous. It makes for a nice sound bite, but come on, trying to conflate that with anything audio is absurd.
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Old 12th November 2018, 06:04 PM   #9494
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Originally Posted by DPH View Post
Which makes a lot of claims rather specious, especially surrounding effects that are most manifest in higher frequencies (e.g. DAC reconstruction filters, jitter, wide-bandwidth source material, etc). This is even *more* problematic when said effects are sitting in the weeds.
Agreed that higher registers are gone.

Don't agree claims are therefore specious, some effects of dac behavior are audible at lower frequencies whether or not we know the exactly mechanism(s) for that.

I would like to remind people that I read here that it was off-putting to people who do not hear small distortions to be called deaf, such as in, "Sorry you are so deaf!"

By the same token, it is just as off-putting to be told what amounts to, "Sorry you are hallucinating crazy!"

I describe what I hear, I describe taking steps to avoid over reliance on sighted listening, and so on. If someone wants to come out here where there is a good system and be in the same room at the same time, then we can see who hears what. In the meantime, I think people should refrain from what amounts to insulting insinuations, even if they are phrased to slip by the forum rules.
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Old 12th November 2018, 06:33 PM   #9495
DPH is offline DPH  United States
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It's easy to describe everything as "it may make a difference, whether or not we know the exact mechanisms for that." -- We can say this about any infinite number of perceptions that may or may not be real. It's exactly the same thing you'll read from a website peddling homeopathy products similarly far fetched things. If I understand what you're trying to say, it's that there may be measurable effects, but they haven't been studied enough to illuminate them. That also inherently means the effect in question is really really really small. Again, makes audibility problematic.

Mark, you're perhaps the most outspoken on this thread about DACs, but my comment was much further reaching than you. The amount of stuff on this site about reclocking and reconstruction filters/oversampling is quite substantial, and almost all the playing around is done without measurements and the comparisons in "upgrades" are before/after modification (with at least a couple hour spread for the most industrious of solderers). That's problematic, triply so when it's a couple degrees of phase tilt at 20 kHz or essentially zero jitter to even closer to essentially zero jitter. It's incredibly hard to NOT be incredulous to those claims, and that doesn't mean you or anyone is crazy.

Maybe it's just me, but I've tempered my view that things are outright impossible/inaudible (within reason, I'm sorry the whole nitrogen modification hulabaloo from Bybee is past my ability to say "maybe"), but there are so many claims made that do not pass the smell test that influence other members to take inordinate steps in their builds/designs/etc. And then it becomes a "must have" feature given the power of suggestion and the fact that we humans are social creatures, while no one stops and asks the very legitimate question, "does this really matter?" The answer is likely "no", but no one goes against an "Emperor's new clothes" situation. We have a lot of folk that write as if they're an authority on a topic when all they have is strongly formed opinions, and a huge percentage of the population on this very site doesn't have the background to discern the difference between mechanism and personal opinion/impression.
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Old 12th November 2018, 06:34 PM   #9496
scott wurcer is offline scott wurcer  United States
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Originally Posted by billshurv View Post

Ok I don't recognise myself in the bolded comment. I don't remember saying that and if I did am embarrassed with myself for doing so.
I distinctly remember Bill making a comment with respect to large claimed differences and speculating that foobar ABX might be sufficient.
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Old 12th November 2018, 06:40 PM   #9497
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
I am not sure that is not unreasonable. To me that is a huge assumption and one I am not sure that holds. Look at how many people come on asking where they can get training for becoming a better listener. To me it is like saying that opticians would be expected to have better vision.
I see, i should have expressed myself better ; what i meant was, that if you belong to the group that have better listening abilities _and_ is interested in better audio reproduction quality then it more likely to find you in a special interest group like diyaudio.

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The extreme cases though are very vocal on here, you must admit.
Canīt dispute that, but wanted to point out that imo the "extremity" isnīt the problem. I follow these discussions since the mid 1980s and the argumentation pattern have been more or less the same. The basis for stating the nonaudibility of some effects is and was always the thresholds of hearing and while neglecting the probability nature of these so-called thresholds (which are in fact anything else than thresholds ) everything allegedly violating the threshold rule was considered as being "extreme" .

Quote:
And whilst people are emboldened by the anonymity of the internet there comes a problem filtering fact from fiction. If there is no remote test that allows people to demonstrate if they can or cannot hear something .....
The important part would be the "can or cannot hear something" because that is reduced to the "cannot" if only negative results are accepted.
So, does it make sense (from an objective viewpoint) to demand controlled "blind" tests if only negative results are accepted?

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when the difference between the new and the strads was around 100x if the Strad is good value then the modern creations are 'cheap' :P. And note this was just in response to the quote taken from a PhD these saying . I personally think that was a daft statement to put in a thesis, but that's just me.
Canīt dispute that too, but the main point was that "distinguishability" between "strad" and "modern" was indeed given in these experiments, but the superiority of every "strad" (inevitable if the mythos would be true) was contradicted by the results.

Quote:
Ok I don't recognise myself in the bolded comment. I don't remember saying that and if I did am embarrassed with myself for doing so.
My apologizes; it wasnīt related to your post and should have been in the "PMA" paragraph above in my post , i obviously made a mistake when editing and merging the answers.

Last edited by Jakob2; 12th November 2018 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 12th November 2018, 06:58 PM   #9498
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPH View Post
We have a lot of folk that write as if they're an authority on a topic when all they have is strongly formed opinions, and a huge percentage of the population on this very site doesn't have the background to discern the difference between mechanism and personal opinion/impression.
That's what makes it fun, and people like space and merrill who habitually misrepresent what people say and situations, I wonder whether they know even that they're doing it half the time, but, as you say, none of it really matters and.......... no one gets hurt
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Old 12th November 2018, 07:03 PM   #9499
myhrrhleine is offline myhrrhleine  Belize
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My BS flag gets raised over perception of things clearly below the noise floor of the room. If you listen at THX levels your peak is 105dBA, so an IMD 110dB down is -5dBA. There we are in extraordinary claims territory. I would however love to be wrong, but seen nothing to suggest I am.
How is that being measured?
The human ear system is capable of very narrow band listening.
About on the order of 1/1200 octaves.
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Old 12th November 2018, 07:12 PM   #9500
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
How is what being measured?
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