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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Old Today, 09:08 PM   #8781
billshurv is online now billshurv  United Kingdom
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
Don't know, never heard one myself. From the measurements it looks to me like it is pretty good, but could be that it has enough IMD to obscure some low level details. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that is the case if compared with, say, DAC-3. Be great to listen to one sometime and see.
Show me the IMD on the plots? Against red book any grot appears to be well below the noise floor of 16/44.1 and by implication well below the noise floor of any microphone used in a studio/concert hall.


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Also, it seems too bad that we can only look at measurements and try to draw conclusions about what something probably sounds like. I sure wish there was some way we could both listen to the same system and compare notes.
Yes. But when distance and language fail us all we have left are measurements. And in the case of redbook we can see that that $349 CD player, on the test suite carried out is better than the source material. Therefore transparent until proven otherwise.

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Hey, actually there may be a way! If you would like to mod a $39 dac to our current design then we could both be listening to the same thing! It would be great, and we would be very happy to have you join us in that journey!

I need about 4 years to clear my project backlog before I get there, but it is on the LTE plan for my system. But 5 channels of DAC is needed in my case so not an evening's work.
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Old Today, 09:18 PM   #8782
john curl is offline john curl  United States
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Wow! You guys already have 'audio nirvana' in a Marantz CD player! What are you doing here then? Perhaps in order to harass the 'hear too much' people? '-)
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Old Today, 09:23 PM   #8783
Markw4 is online now Markw4  United States
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Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
Therefore transparent until proven otherwise.
The sentiment is well understood, and of course quite logical. It does assume the measurements capture all there is to hear. However, I would say that IME listening tests would reveal some differences, probably small, yet enough to successfully ABX, in the sound of dacs otherwise assumed to be transparent based on measurements looking better than CD specifications. I would actually be quite surprised if you couldn't hear a difference is sound quality playing a CD on the Marantz player vs through DAC-3. That being said, I have been surprised before and it could happen again.
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Old Today, 09:23 PM   #8784
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Something wrong with Marantz players? Very happy with my 6004, but I'm old and deaf.
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Old Today, 09:44 PM   #8785
billshurv is online now billshurv  United Kingdom
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Wow! You guys already have 'audio nirvana' in a Marantz CD player! What are you doing here then? Perhaps in order to harass the 'hear too much' people? '-)

Cheap shot John and beneath you. I merely asked for someone to point out what could be improved on that for playing back redbook CDs. Not the first time these measurements have been posted and still no one has pointed out where the improvements could be. So I can only assume snobbery that something so affordable cannot sound good?
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Old Today, 09:58 PM   #8786
billshurv is online now billshurv  United Kingdom
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
I would actually be quite surprised if you couldn't hear a difference is sound quality playing a CD on the Marantz player vs through DAC-3. That being said, I have been surprised before and it could happen again.

looks like the CD5004 is available second hand for around $100 and the newer CD5005 new is only around the $180 mark. If we could come up with a suitable protocol I'd chip in to get one to be shipped around for tests.
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Old Today, 10:14 PM   #8787
Markw4 is online now Markw4  United States
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Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
looks like the CD5004 is available second hand for around $100 and the newer CD5005 new is only around the $180 mark. If we could come up with a suitable protocol I'd chip in to get one to be shipped around for tests.
That's cheap enough to try out. Which one do you recommend?

EDIT: The ones on ebay cost as much as new, or more. That's the way it looks at the moment.

Last edited by Markw4; Today at 10:18 PM.
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Old Today, 10:25 PM   #8788
billshurv is online now billshurv  United Kingdom
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Mark: very good question and not one I can immediately answer. The CD5004 we have the measurements for and at least on paper is as good as redbook gets. That uses the CS4392. The newer model uses the CS4398 which is better specs but we have no measurements to know if it is as well implemented. If it were me I would get the older one.


Of course the killer in the comparisons is ensuring like for like or at least similar digital filter implementations. Otherwise there is a risk we are just chosing a prefence on that.
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Old Today, 10:32 PM   #8789
Markw4 is online now Markw4  United States
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Of course the killer in the comparisons is ensuring like for like or at least similar digital filter implementations. Otherwise there is a risk we are just chosing a prefence on that.
If so, then they must not be completely transparent.
There are probably other reasons too. ESS says sigma delta dacs exhibit transient distortion when quickly going from loud to soft due to state variable settling. The distortion does not show up in tests with steady tones.They say some people can hear it, and that they have found a way to make it smaller.
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Old Today, 10:39 PM   #8790
billshurv is online now billshurv  United Kingdom
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
If digital filters sound different then the are not transparent. But which one is 'right' .



What sort of transients are ESS talking about and do they actually appear in the digital recordings we buy? I can only find this http://www.esstech.com/files/4314/4095/4318/sabrewp.pdf which skirts around the scale of the issue so I have to file in 'flooby'.
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