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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Old 21st September 2018, 11:55 PM   #8041
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I don't see why there can't be a debate involving truth seeking.
Debates are adversarial events. In debating class people can be assigned to debate a position they don't even believe in. The aim is to win however you can within the rules, if there are any. Making an opponent look like of fool, being dishonest, exaggerating, and trying to keep an opponent on the defensive, are all good if allowed and aid winning.

Adversarial debate is used in legal cases too where both sides are supposed to present their best cases, and juries are supposed to find the 'truth' which is often presumed to lay somewhere between to two extremes being advocated.

All the above is very different from scientists who see things differently agreeing to work on a research project together to see if they can find any scientific consensus at all. That was the method usually used by Daniel Kahneman when someone strongly disagreed with him. He invited a big critic of his, Gary Klein, to do a shared research project. The paper they eventually published was subtitled, "A Failure to Disagree." https://www.fs.fed.us/rmrs/sites/def...ToDisagree.pdf

In the case here it isn't just Dan, but also Ed, John Curl, morinix, and a few others who may prefer to quietly read along, who believe that cables can have audible directional characteristics.

At least Ed is trying to make some progress with measurements. He does tend to work as a loner it appears, but he seems interested in improving his methods to some extent, so long as he can do it alone.

Describing what cable direction sounds like in terms that only Dan knows the meaning of is of no real use to anyone that I can see.

Its getting to the point non-cable guys are growing increasingly tired of hearing nonproductive, effectively useless claims and implausible theories. Pretty soon they are just going to try to get the cable guys to shut up and go away.

The cable guys need to understand that and decide if they want to do anything to change where things are going or not.

Last edited by Markw4; 22nd September 2018 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 12:16 AM   #8042
scott wurcer is offline scott wurcer  United States
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Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
The cable guys need to understand that and decide if they want to do anything to change where things are going or not.
That would be the no peeking, I expect the flies to start buzzing again.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 04:59 AM   #8043
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I'm not sure there was any name calling?
Actually, there was not - John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II
The information I give in that post and my next post still stands.
Quote:
I don't see why there can't be a debate involving truth seeking. Anyway, we could argue semantics all day... but my point is that it's a waste of time trying to argue over what are basically unassailable beliefs.
Precisely, indeed I view the 'naysayers' as defending beliefs and that's why I post my observations only, theory explanation is what I seek.
I have two things going on here, one is altering system noise the other is exploring directional properties.
Through evolutionary improvement of my PB systems subjective low level detail and changes in this low level detail is now very clearly apparent.
This has enabled me to now much better note and understand the subjective consequential effects.
This has revealed cable direction to be a relatively important property in the case of the mid-fi system I am currently running.
If the root cause is connection quality then so be it, however experience shows this not to be the case in this system (and other systems).
This cable directional property 'bit me in the ***' long time ago regarding a turntable cable issue because I believed what I was told in lectures, that is cables "do not, will not and cannot exhibit directional properties".

Experience has shown me in the case of multiple audio systems that this statement is plain wrong.
Ok, so this leads to decisions on measurement protocol and subsequent evaluation of measurements data.
I am working on this and I have obtained preliminary results that seem to indicate that the property is real.
I will repeat measurement experiments soon and when I have robust data of course I will present it for discussion.


Dan.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 05:21 AM   #8044
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
In the case here it isn't just Dan, but also Ed, John Curl, morinix, and a few others who may prefer to quietly read along, who believe that cables can have audible directional characteristics.
I observe that there is some kind of property in cables that causes consequential effects in downstream equipment and that reversal of cable direction alters these downstream consequential effects.
Quote:
At least Ed is trying to make some progress with measurements. He does tend to work as a loner it appears, but he seems interested in improving his methods to some extent, so long as he can do it alone.
I am also progressing with testing.
Quote:
Describing what cable direction sounds like in terms that only Dan knows the meaning of is of no real use to anyone that I can see.
I did try to explain what the subjective differences are but it seems that nobody paid attention.
I can try again if somebody wants.


Dan.

Last edited by Max Headroom; 22nd September 2018 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 05:42 AM   #8045
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
If the root cause is connection quality then so be it, however experience shows this not to be the case in this system (and other systems).
This cable directional property 'bit me in the ***' long time ago regarding a turntable cable issue because I believed what I was told in lectures, that is cables "do not, will not and cannot exhibit directional properties".
Dan I would suggest removing the connectors. Solder the cable ends directly to the sender-receiver circuits. (I do solder directly on the cartridge pins)

George
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Old 22nd September 2018, 07:27 AM   #8046
chris719 is offline chris719  United States
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
Actually, there was not - John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II
The information I give in that post and my next post still stands.
Precisely, indeed I view the 'naysayers' as defending beliefs and that's why I post my observations only, theory explanation is what I seek.
I have two things going on here, one is altering system noise the other is exploring directional properties.
Through evolutionary improvement of my PB systems subjective low level detail and changes in this low level detail is now very clearly apparent.
This has enabled me to now much better note and understand the subjective consequential effects.
This has revealed cable direction to be a relatively important property in the case of the mid-fi system I am currently running.
If the root cause is connection quality then so be it, however experience shows this not to be the case in this system (and other systems).
This cable directional property 'bit me in the ***' long time ago regarding a turntable cable issue because I believed what I was told in lectures, that is cables "do not, will not and cannot exhibit directional properties".

Experience has shown me in the case of multiple audio systems that this statement is plain wrong.
Ok, so this leads to decisions on measurement protocol and subsequent evaluation of measurements data.
I am working on this and I have obtained preliminary results that seem to indicate that the property is real.
I will repeat measurement experiments soon and when I have robust data of course I will present it for discussion.


Dan.
Agreed. I'm happy to change my point of view if someone is able to demonstrate their ability to pick it out without peeking.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 08:30 AM   #8047
indra1 is offline indra1  Indonesia
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Originally Posted by DPH View Post
Doesn't that presume that the effect is real and unexplained? Has that actually been established?...
Probably not, establishing the effect as real could be complicated. As an anecdote, in his presentation in Burning Amp 2016, Nelson Pass explained about how an addition of a source resistor to a source follower reduce the amount of THD and change spectral distribution of the harmonics of which he claimed can be reliably identified by Joe Sammut but not being able to do so well himself. As Mark said, it is very difficult to conduct an experiment to measure difference contributing to a noticeable difference without someone being able to reliably tell a difference. I have not seen hard data from either sides.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
... Its getting to the point non-cable guys are growing increasingly tired of hearing nonproductive, effectively useless claims and implausible theories. Pretty soon they are just going to try to get the cable guys to shut up and go away. ...
Great, I highly appreciate any scientific effort from either sides. Anybody has a good idea on what and how to measure? I'd like to join the fun if required gadgets are affordable.

Sometimes I simply envy those who did not notice any difference in cables and consider them very lucky, less botomless money pit to fully enjoy their ultimate audio entertainment. I consider myself not as high on the luck scale, but grateful enough for being able to hear only very subtle difference so that I do not miss much by abstaining from outrageously priced exotics.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 08:45 AM   #8048
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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I'm envious of those who can hear a difference in cable direction, very cheap system upgrade every couple of weeks
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Old 22nd September 2018, 09:49 AM   #8049
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
I did try to explain what the subjective differences are but it seems that nobody paid attention.
You try to explain, it seems, it terms of listening experiences that most here do not share. It is as thought you talked about subtleties of colors of exotic flowers to people who are largely color blind. The words have no meaning because there is no shared experience behind it.

For example, you talk about excess system noise, but I don't hear much noise anymore. I don't hear frequencies well, nor soft sounds. That, and I never paid a lot of attention to noise to begin with. Distortion is another matter, that I have heard and disliked since at least the early teens. As a result, telling me what to listen for is useless. Lot of other old men here too. They may not hear they way you do or process hearing noise the same way your brain does. Repeated attempts to get them to listen more closely aren't working, and may never work even if they tried as hard as they could.

It's up to you to find another approach for convincing them, if you care to try. I have suggested ways, but you seem to have no interest. You only say that people don't pay attention to what you say. Well, maybe you don't pay attention to what people are trying to say to you?

Last edited by Markw4; 22nd September 2018 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2018, 11:08 AM   #8050
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Originally Posted by gpapag View Post
Dan I would suggest removing the connectors. Solder the cable ends directly to the sender-receiver circuits. (I do solder directly on the cartridge pins).
Hi George.
Thanks for the suggestion but in this case is not appropriate or practical as I am setting out to measure effects in a 'typical' household system and the test protocol requires reversal of one or both cables quickly before continuing with the next step.
Residual heat from soldering process would add a confounder in this case.


Dan.
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