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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Old 18th February 2018, 03:13 AM   #21
Markw4 is online now Markw4  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post

It seems that analog (and mechanical) systems can exhibit a 'jitter/noise'
Crane Song has jitter files here: jitter_1
On the next page you can also hear the sound of the residual jitter after the original clean sound was removed.

Also, the link to some files I sent you differ in part by real hardware jitter, some of them a lot. Is that the sound you mean?

I'm asking because I can tell those files apart, but not yours. They don't sound like they differ by jitter as I am familiar with it.

EDIT: If anyone wants to hear or compare the files I gave Dan the link to, here they are: Dropbox - GQ
It can take some practice to hear the differences, but many rather ordinary recording engineers can do it for at least some of them. However, they listen to such things a lot. If it helps to know it, the differences have virtually nothing to do with frequency response and not much to do with noise. Not much left to listen for.

Last edited by Markw4; 18th February 2018 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 18th February 2018, 04:24 AM   #22
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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MARKw4 ---- interesting suggestion --- (post 99989) it is also the same way I listen for changes .... over and over and over --- same short clip of sound used back and forth until i am able to describe differences between A and B. I have to learn the sound in detail first. I pick cymbal transient clip or other transient type sounds with an ESL speaker (new Quads). This way I have been able to detect consistently differences and can describe it. And, that loop or rerun has to be done for a long time....for me maybe 1/4 to 1/2 hour and longer. same clip. Then the differences - if any - reveal its self and after that point in time... it becomes easier to hear the difference. Once you learn the sounds character.... Seems our memory of sound isnt all that exact so quick back and forth over and over is needed. Sort of memory training. From doing it, I can imagine a Mastering Eng who listens critically all day long might have heard the sound character and know any difference sooner than myself.



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Last edited by RNMarsh; 18th February 2018 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 18th February 2018, 06:20 AM   #23
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Of course, there are many newer papers than the 1958 by P.C. Dow on DA modeling. And, more detailed information as well.

I'll throw some up starting with this.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c30...908fbdf179.pdf

BTW --- if we assume DA doesnt matter because even with an electrolytic type can show low THD distortion in some conditions - it would lead some to use any cap in any application with no negative affects.

This could be misleading and would be a mistake IMO.

Some practical thrown in also...

http://slot-tech.com/interesting_stu...20-%203759.pdf



THx-RNMarsh

Last edited by RNMarsh; 18th February 2018 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 18th February 2018, 06:44 AM   #24
spaceistheplace is offline spaceistheplace
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
Like sniping on eBay in the old days. Sniping a rare LP on eBay ended up in a wonderful experience for me. The other bidder was a 60's blues guitarists trying to get a copy of one of his mentors LP's. We made contact and I digitized several LP's for him and he ended up giving me a private concert in my hotel room when I was in his area. I also placed him in contact with other fans of his mentor.

You should take a peek at Bill Orcutt (ex Harry Pussy). Heís been really defining his own out there improvisational Americana which I find to be really brilliant.

YouTube

You might take a peek at Abner Jay as well.

YouTube

Iíve had some similar experiences on eBay, although that sounds pretty special.

A friend of mine, who is an avid collector/dealer/restoration expert in World War II bomber jackets (and militaria in general) still snipes the old fashioned way. He has this paranoia that the technology will somehow fail him. Not completely wrong, I think.

Funny, the way he gets all rattled up in the back and forth with others in his forum reminds me a lot of diya.
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Old 18th February 2018, 06:52 AM   #25
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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more papers and tests on capacitors..... this one includes the effects of a DC on the cap vs no DC but signal only. Also signal amplitude and how it affects harmonics.

https://linearaudio.nl/sites/lineara...20to%201uF.pdf


THx-RNMarsh

Last edited by RNMarsh; 18th February 2018 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 18th February 2018, 09:33 AM   #26
gpauk is offline gpauk  Scotland
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So, lets assume with some effort it's possible to learn to hear very minor differences. That can be useful to some, just as being able to see the frame rate on a 24fps movie can be useful to some - and hard to unlearn once learned.

But, what is the objective for audio? If it's the pleasure of the music, then surely the goal is to learn *not* to hear minute differences, to learn to hear the music not the distortion.

An outstanding viola player I knew (sadly no longer with us) could listen to music on anything, even crappy little radios, he did not hear the physical layer, just the quality of musical "information".
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Old 18th February 2018, 10:35 AM   #27
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpauk View Post
So, lets assume with some effort it's possible to learn to hear very minor differences. That can be useful to some, just as being able to see the frame rate on a 24fps movie can be useful to some - and hard to unlearn once learned.
Hearing minor differences is useful when finessing a live mix, recording or system.

Quote:
But, what is the objective for audio? If it's the pleasure of the music, then surely the goal is to learn *not* to hear minute differences, to learn to hear the music not the distortion.
That's the rub...when the sound is 'right', the player/vocal nuances and production values are plainly revealed allowing full insight into what the performers are trying to achieve and share.
Sure I can listen and do listen on 'lesser' gear but the pleasure is not the same when the nice bits are lost or masked.

Quote:
An outstanding viola player I knew (sadly no longer with us) could listen to music on anything, even crappy little radios, he did not hear the physical layer, just the quality of musical "information".
This has been mentioned here before...yes some musos and rabid fans (Elvis etc) hear the tune and not the nuances....or distortions.
That said one guitarist that I have worked with for a long time has outstandingly good ears and is very critical of gear sounds.
I am critical of both program sound and gear sound and can listen to them separately.
I can listen to good performances/recordings on just about any gear, the better the gear the more real and fun the playback becomes, BUT I find it pretty much impossible to listen to bad composition/performances and it matters not much the quality level of the gear, to me such 'music' is unlistenable, at best boring.

Dan.
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Old 18th February 2018, 10:42 AM   #28
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpauk View Post
So, lets assume with some effort it's possible to learn to hear very minor differences. That can be useful to some, just as being able to see the frame rate on a 24fps movie can be useful to some - and hard to unlearn once learned.
But, what is the objective for audio? If it's the pleasure of the music, then surely the goal is to learn *not* to hear minute differences, to learn to hear the music not the distortion.
Yep, I've said similar here and there. I started an "Art For Beginners" course some time ago, but stopped before it destroyed the pleasure I took in just wandering around carelessly looking at stuff.
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Old 18th February 2018, 10:47 AM   #29
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
I am critical of both program sound and gear sound and can listen to them separately.
I can listen to good performances/recordings on just about any gear, the better the gear the more real and fun the playback becomes, BUT I find it pretty much impossible to listen to bad composition/performances and it matters not much the quality level of the gear, to me such 'music' is unlistenable, at best boring.
Can you take pleasure in a 1920's recording of great musicians? Good equipment is still better for poor recordings I find
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Old 18th February 2018, 11:14 AM   #30
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markw4 View Post
Also, the link to some files I sent you differ in part by real hardware jitter, some of them a lot. Is that the sound you mean? I'm asking because I can tell those files apart, but not yours. They don't sound like they differ by jitter as I am familiar with it.
I said 'sort of like jitter'....jitter can add broadband noise/masking and loss of subjective resolution, jitter can also add a particular 'character'.
Jitter can also disturb the 'groove' due to timing variation.
With my files you might notice improved 'stability' with improved clarity, weight and groove.

Quote:
EDIT: If anyone wants to hear or compare the files I gave Dan the link to, here they are: Dropbox - GQ
It can take some practice to hear the differences, but many rather ordinary recording engineers can do it for at least some of them. However, they listen to such things a lot. If it helps to know it, the differences have virtually nothing to do with frequency response and not much to do with noise. Not much left to listen for.
I have had brief listen and note differences and will get back to you.

Dan.
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