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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
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Old 17th April 2018, 08:18 AM   #2571
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
Speakers are such a PITA. I do most of my listening on Sennheiser HD800s. How do you like yours compared to the HE-500?
I like it very much ... the 800 is very 'flat' for the ear response but seems not as extended in highs....... havent tested though. Both seem to have low distortion.

THx-RNMarsh
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Old 17th April 2018, 08:23 AM   #2572
SyncTronX is offline SyncTronX  United States
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Location: Another Project Enters the Queue Oh My!
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Until the JBL M2. A two way but I am fixing to make a sub to go with it and limit the LF range of the JBL driver. and remove the affects of the ported enclosure.
@Richard, I am most interested in your drivers that makes Walys head spin. What are you using and how are you configuring it, them?

Do you have data sheet/specs will travel???? No, I don't mean sending speakers but info please.

This is going to be my next "project" after I get the mastering speakers up and running.

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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
If others want to increase 'accuracy' of their system... they have to do the actual hard work... do the recorded/live over and over while doing upgrading/improving/modifying all parts of the room and hardware system.

THx-RNMarsh
Oh, come on Richard, what fun is that? I mean you'd be gutting a lot of the adventure that many on DIYAudio live through the work of others! And, to be the critic that points out the "err" of your limited cognitive ability and always prone to group think your way outta something.

What was that noted saying that people quote about critics?

Oh yes, give credit to the critic because it is s/he who is omnipotent and screw the wo/man who dare get in and dirty up his organ of such vile and low hung fruit. Lothe him/er and quote the raven ever more.

And listen to his heart beating from the sub-woofer....

Too hell with it, the critic proclaimed...of with it's cranium and wo/man-hood too.

How dare they curse the sacred review of their toil... ...after all, what do the know they that cannot be disputed and proven false from my own critical simulation.

How dare they, moam rath outgrabe be dammed!

Just go ask Alice, when she's ten feet tall.

Then and only then may you challenge the Critics' sacred words. Only to be stuck down again with rebuttal.

Richard, John, others, back to the toil...

And the beat goes on....

Cheers,

Gentlemen enjoy the ride.
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Last edited by SyncTronX; 17th April 2018 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 17th April 2018, 08:38 AM   #2573
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Originally Posted by FdW View Post
This still does not answer the question, I still do not know what the mains impedance is in the patent, I still think (like you do) that the 56u for C89 is (at the least) a bit large, is this serious (a capacitor that large)? And above all I still do not know why the simulation result does not match the patent and the graphs in the patent.

Any way, at this moment I do not expect to get a true answer, and in that light you may see the question as rhetorical.

@1audio, thank for trying but the question was actually intended for RN Marsh. For now I will forget about the patent and find other documentation for mains-filter applications.
That does not look like the original patent but one that others have played with... added switches to extend patent life etc. So, I would not be surprised if those are not the values I used, either. i have both CAD data (used in patent app) and measured - which is same as CAD.

56ufd? I never used a 56u. But if you understand that patent, you can get the results I used and produced.

Demian is correct in how this was developed ..... a digital display cheap-o table clock (later called a Tice clock) was plugged in, people heard a change in thier systems sound. One of those which purely tech types LTAO. But, I believe if so many people say they hear same thing, something is going on....

Because I have a small arsenal of test equipment, I measured the Z across the ac plug pins. I saw a dip in the Z at mid freq. Not deep but noticeable. Inside, i found the parts which were responsible for that dip.. a resonance formed with C and transformer. But I could make a better one with a few passive parts with greater atten at resonance.

It worked just fine and so I assumed if one is good, I could place several staggered across the wide freq range and atten a wider range of unwanted freqs. ETC> Its in the patent. The entire effect is large - audibly large. I took it to the head quarters of Stereophile and in thier ref system it made a dramatic change in the sound. Just plugged into the adjacent outlet their system is plugged into. Every single person at Stereophile heard the change in sound. They kept it for a long time afterwards. Eventually it became a commercial product.

It isnt suitable here to discuss without a DBLT to back it up however.... for the non-believers. Might have been fun (not) but wasnt necessary.

There are many ways to approach ac line filtering.... and yes, you need to know the ac line Z. And something about the loads. In USA, power Z is about 100 Ohms. The people the patent was assigned to couldn't build it to be reliable and Ii dont think it is sold any more..... maybe some simplified version? I am working on restarting that as a product again in Asia since the patent is long passed.

Should I?

Somewhere there is the message of a clean ac power source can help towards a more accurate playback system. In fact it has similar affect on the recording side as well. When used by a well known artist at a new studio in Canada with a new Neve console wrote back and returned the loaner saying it made a bigger improvement than their new Neve. They bought one.

There are several ways to clean up the ac line, that was one way. Further back was a noise/transient computer glitch issue we had at LLNL. it too was traced to the 3-phase ac power line. Some other time.


THx-RNMarsh

Last edited by RNMarsh; 17th April 2018 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 17th April 2018, 08:48 AM   #2574
hitsware is offline hitsware
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> In USA, power Z is about 100 Ohms.

So if I stick a 100 Ohm resistor into an outlet, the A.C. will go down to ~ 55 Volts ?
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Old 17th April 2018, 09:10 AM   #2575
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hitsware View Post
> In USA, power Z is about 100 Ohms.

So if I stick a 100 Ohm resistor into an outlet, the A.C. will go down to ~ 55 Volts ?
sure. Try it but have someone there to take a picture when you do it.

Characteristic Z of the line. .. at 50/60 Hz is another story.



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Old 17th April 2018, 09:36 AM   #2576
FdW is offline FdW  Netherlands
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Thanks, to respond

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
That does not look like the original patent but one that others have played with... added switches to extend patent life etc.
That explains some (the mods that do not make sense and do not do anything for the filter (like the switches))

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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
So, I would not be surprised if those are not the values I used, either. i have both CAD data (used in patent app) and measured - which is same as CAD.
So, the original, was torpedoed. It would be nice to see the original values, I'm in the process of looking into designing a filter of myself, for this I was looking at designs other people did, this one was just one that came up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
56ufd? I never used a 56u. But if you understand that patent, you can get the results I used and produced.
Again this explains more, and yes I do understand the intentions of the filter, and yes I can figure out how to make it work, even, probably, how to enhance it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Demian is correct in how this was developed ..... a digital display cheap-o table clock (later called a Tice clock) was plugged in, people heard a change in thier systems sound. One of those which purely tech types LTAO. But, I believe if so many people say they hear same thing, something is going on....
I did search the net and could not find what it meaning of this phrase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Because I have a small arsenal of test equipment, I measured the Z across the ac plug pins. I saw a dip in the Z at mid freq. Not deep but noticeable. Inside, i found the parts which were responsible for that dip.. a resonance formed with C and transformer. But I could make a better one with a few passive parts with greater atten at resonance.
It worked just fine and so I assumed if one is good, I could place several staggered across the wide freq range and atten a wider range of unwanted freqs. ETC> Its in the patent. The entire effect is large - audibly large. I took it to the head quarters of Stereophile and in thier ref system it made a dramatic change in the sound. Just plugged into the adjacent outlet their system is plugged into. Every single person at Stereophile heard the change in sound. They kept it for a long time afterwards. Eventually it became a commercial product.
Lets see what I can do to make my own measurements (this will take a while ).

It's a pity/shame that the original patent has been modified into a 'high-End folly' this is (as I see) one of the tasks of the patent office, to prevent that these 'folly's are patented. Anyway it's not my task to guard that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
It isnt suitable here to discuss without a DBLT to back it up however.... for the non-believers. Might have been fun (not) but wasnt necessary.
That's fine, ill just need some measurements as a reality-check for my simulations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
There are many ways to approach ac line filtering.... and yes, you need to know the ac line Z. And something about the loads. In USA, power Z is about 100 Ohms. The people the patent was assigned to couldn't build it to be reliable and Ii dont think it is sold any more..... maybe some simplified version? I am working on restarting that as a product again in Asia since the patent is long passed.
100 Ohms seems like excessive, I was thinking in the directions of, about a 1% drop for each 2 Amps makes for 5% at 10 Amps might be reasonable. That would be about 500 mOhm so a value between 500 mOhm (or less) and 1 Ohm may be reasonable. I will check if there is some data available for the utility company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Should I?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Somewhere there is the message of a clean ac power source can help towards a more accurate playback system. In fact it has similar affect on the recording side as well. When used by a well known artist at a new studio in Canada with a new Neve console wrote back and returned the loaner saying it made a bigger improvement than their new Neve. They bought one.
In my opinion, if a filter like this (or any other) changes the sound of an audio device, then the device must be badly designed (or broken). But there are a lot of badly designed audio (and other) devices that may or will benefit from a mains-filter, so why not supply one

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
There are several ways to clean up the ac line, that was one way. Further back was a noise/transient computer glitch issue we had at LLNL. it too was traced to the 3-phase ac power line. Some other time.
Of course, using frequency tuned constant-voltage transformers being on one end of the scale, one could use a motor/generator combo to regenerate or a SMPS high-power amplifier to regenerate. Using a filter should be the low-cost solution, as I would guess that most other solutions will be costlier.

Last edited by FdW; 17th April 2018 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 17th April 2018, 09:39 AM   #2577
FdW is offline FdW  Netherlands
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitsware View Post
> In USA, power Z is about 100 Ohms.

So if I stick a 100 Ohm resistor into an outlet, the A.C. will go down to ~ 55 Volts ?
One of these may do
iron - Google Search
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Old 17th April 2018, 11:14 AM   #2578
FdW is offline FdW  Netherlands
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Some docs found, sorry Dutch, but the graph is clear.

My home connection is 25A 240Vac = 6kW

So, according to the graph it should be about 550mOhm
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Netzanschluss-UNL083010.jpg (129.8 KB, 232 views)
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File Type: pdf Netzanschluss-UNL083010.pdf (385.6 KB, 5 views)
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Old 17th April 2018, 11:18 AM   #2579
FdW is offline FdW  Netherlands
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John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Actually that 'iron'-measurement-system is not so bad, just need a Iron, Amp-meter and Volt-meter and there we go. Here the results, measurements vary between 677 and 811 mOhm
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File Type: jpg Measured mains impedance.JPG (62.3 KB, 227 views)

Last edited by FdW; 17th April 2018 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 17th April 2018, 11:33 AM   #2580
Markw4 is offline Markw4  United States
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Powerline impedance at the power frequency can vary a lot depending on things like the number of transformers, distance from the generator, tightness of screw terminal blocks, etc. Interconnection screws and bolts tend to need retightening from time to time, a routine activity of electricians. There has to be a lot of existing literature on these things, I recall having seen some of it before. There is probably even a branch or subdivision of IEEE dedicated to power transmission and delivery, and maybe another for things like EMI/RFI suppression. Probably trade magazines dedicated to it as well, maybe one called Power Quality (?). All this off the top of my head, it has been awhile since I had to dig into some related issues.
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