Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st November 2018, 11:35 PM   #10091
billshurv is offline billshurv  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
billshurv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
as if I were standing at the front of the stage while the band performed.

Bands like that in front of the stage live are
1. F*** loud
2. F*** distorted
3. No attempt is made to mix a studio like stereo soundstage..


So he's saying your goop made it loud, distorted and mono? You can screw up a pair of headphones in 5 minutes?
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2018, 11:37 PM   #10092
mmerrill99 is offline mmerrill99
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
Expectation and prior knowledge aiding scene perception is a familiar idea since I've read much of what Linkwitz has to say on the matter, I'm happy to say it works for me in my room with my dipoles, I'm sure this has been discussed before, I don't think there's any argument this is a major aspect of psychoacoustics and how we create a believable image for ourselves.
Yes, I saw Linkwitz was aware of Bregman & auditory scene analysis (ASA) but does he only reference it in relation to room acoustics - you seem to also limit it to this consideration or have I picked this up wrong?

ASA is really a fundamental & core aspect of what our sense of hearing is about - what enables us to make sense of complex acoustic mixtures in order to best represent the real world & arrive at percepts corresponding
to the individual sound sources or follow, for instance ,a single melody in the midst of an orchestra.

"The task is also known as the ‘cocktail party problem’ [4], which refers to the ability to follow one conversation when many people are talking at the same time. The auditory system has to determine whether a sequence of
sounds all came from a single source, and should be perceived as a single ‘stream’ or whether there were multiple sources [5]. In the latter case, each sound in the sequence has to be allocated to its appropriate source and multiple streams should be heard."

As I said before this is a highly complex task & the fact of the matter is that there is not enough data (nerve impulses arriving on the auditory pathway) to uniquely solve this task i.e to uniquely match the signals to one particular auditory scene - it's an ill-posed problem that suffers from a poverty of stimulus. So at any point in time the auditory scene is the result of some guesswork & we are constantly in somewhat of a confused condition which we try to alleviate by using different techniques - techniques that we are only discovering but the easy ones to understand are - using other signals from other senses to corroborate with auditory signals - so vision is an important source of additional signals.

Other techniques used are predictive top-down guesswork selecting a finite set of previously stored patterns which best match the pattern of incoming auditory signals. Top-down matching isn't just a passive process, it actively directs the bottom-up signals by focusing attention to specific aspects of the evolving sound. And bottom-up signals can cause changes to the set of patterns that best corroborate with the signals - it's a two way communication.

So attention, inattention & previous experience also play a part in what is being heard, what aspects are being heard - like vision, we don't consciously hear what is outside our focus.

There's lots more to be said but the result of all the above is that auditory perception is fragile (as are other perceptions) hence we can experience auditory & visual illusions - it also explains why even when there is an obvious audible difference, we often don't score 100% in identifying this.

A lay persons guide makes an interesting read about the ambiguity of auditory perception & the use of illusions in the study of this perception, with particular emphasis on music perception

ASA: the sweet music of ambiguity

Last edited by mmerrill99; 21st November 2018 at 11:40 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2018, 11:39 PM   #10093
ticknpop is offline ticknpop  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: toronto
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
You’re all loosing sight of the prime objective
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg 777B0A42-25FC-4767-A7C2-28277D6C5A04.jpeg (15.8 KB, 171 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2018, 11:44 PM   #10094
DPH is offline DPH  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: West Coast USA (somewhere)
Quote:
Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
Still no relationship to domestic replay
No real argument with the rest and definitely no argument with what's quoted.
__________________
Happy DIYing, Daniel
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd November 2018, 12:04 AM   #10095
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
diyAudio Member
 
scottjoplin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Penrhyndeudraeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmerrill99 View Post
Yes, I saw Linkwitz was aware of Bregman & auditory scene analysis (ASA) but does he only reference it in relation to room acoustics - you seem to also limit it to this consideration or have I picked this up wrong?
No, it all stems from how we learn to hear, early on we confirm direction of sound with our eyes and then through more and more experience the skill improves. Something he said I find interesting as well, it helps with our ability to create the illusion in our rooms if we expose ourselves to sound in the natural world, i.e. outdoor spaces.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd November 2018, 12:11 AM   #10096
Max Headroom is online now Max Headroom  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Max Headroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Australia, near to the beach, natural ambient sounds mostly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
I didn't see a comparison to untreated headphones but "if played through low-fi speakers (such as laptop speakers, etc.), their songs can sound quite harsh and muddled".
The fellow knows the sound of his headphones...read it again and you will see that he is expressing examples of improvements and 'discoveries'.

Quote:
BTW Slipknot, and you complain about my music?
Haha yes, I can't listen to some of the stuff you link to, I haven't really listened to his choices.
Either way, clarifying the mix in the way he describes is remarkable and significant......new to him, old hat to me.

Dan.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd November 2018, 12:16 AM   #10097
Max Headroom is online now Max Headroom  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Max Headroom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: West Australia, near to the beach, natural ambient sounds mostly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billshurv View Post
Bands like that in front of the stage live are
1. F*** loud
2. F*** distorted
3. No attempt is made to mix a studio like stereo soundstage..


So he's saying your goop made it loud, distorted and mono? You can screw up a pair of headphones in 5 minutes?
Simply clueless statements/assertions.
Sad really.

Dan.

Last edited by Max Headroom; 22nd November 2018 at 12:29 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd November 2018, 12:36 AM   #10098
mmerrill99 is offline mmerrill99
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
No, it all stems from how we learn to hear, early on we confirm direction of sound with our eyes and then through more and more experience the skill improves. Something he said I find interesting as well, it helps with our ability to create the illusion in our rooms if we expose ourselves to sound in the natural world, i.e. outdoor spaces.
Ok, thanks.
Yes, I agree with him - we start with an innate, rudimentary perception & learn the nature & behavior of sounds by regular exposure - we seem to build internal models of these sound patterns - this internal patterning is a complex area & not so well understood - it seems to involve statistical averaging which is clever way of distilling a complex sound down into an easier to store representation.

The bit about "helps with our ability to create the illusion in our rooms if we expose ourselves to sound in the natural world, i.e. outdoor spaces" I'm not sure is correct. We've already laid down the sound patterns & behaviors of how sound objects behave in nature - maybe additional exposure helps to remind/reinforce these patterns but I doubt it - the learning has already done its job to completion.

I do believe however that living with/listening to an audio system/device over a long time helps us to build a model of the sound of that system/device & this can be used as the internal model against which new systems/devices are compared.

An interesting aside - I believe how we acquire language, grammar, etc is simply by the regular hearing of the same word sounds & the same patterns of sounds that make up short phrases such as "Bye mama" & these form the building blocks for eventually learning correct grammar & sentence constructs. I know this is simplistic & Chomsky & others have researched this - linguistics is where the phrase "poverty of the stimulus" comes from - meaning that there is not enough information in just hearing the sounds of sentences to allow us to construct valid sentences ourselves, as children. I'm not so sure it isn't easily answered by the constant hearing of sentence repetition 7 the corrections when we attempt our own constructs?
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd November 2018, 12:48 AM   #10099
scott wurcer is offline scott wurcer  United States
diyAudio Member
 
scott wurcer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Belmont MA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
Simply clueless statements.
Dan.
What statement, loud? I've never been front and center where I could bear to stay and listen especially with hard aggressive music. I had a friend who setup for name acts in the 70's in the UK, front row SPL's were typically set at 120dB.
__________________
"The way up and the way down are one in the same"
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd November 2018, 01:09 AM   #10100
billshurv is offline billshurv  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
billshurv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part III
I also believe that for the sort of music being talked about the limiters are run very hard, so yes it is distorted to a level not acceptable for normal replay. (Ed you got any numbers here).
  Reply With Quote

Reply


John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part IIIHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:23 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki