Ah, well, as we know a CD player is nowhere near a good enough source to use if you want to hear that difference... I mean, 16bit, 44kHz, call that hi fi?
Try switching back to the cheap interconnects, then you might notice a difference.Surely you are going to have to have been there to know how "correct and realistic" that was. BTW, I'm all for "better"
BTW2, I swapped the basic interconnects that came with my CD player for some silver plated ones I have, no difference
Like I said try swapping speakers connection polarity and listen enough to understand the two sounds you get and then restore polarity. Once you have that understanding try swapping direction of one interconnect and you ought to hear that one speaker sounds different to the other and subjectively better, set both cables to the preferred sounding direction and you are done.
Dan.
That's for sure. I forgot to mention HomePNA, ADSL, etc. have been around for years using the Romex in your house and POTS lines that are more than 100yr old at data rates of 50Mbits or more. The transmission line behavior of all of these is quite important. ADSL even works over razor wire, I'm sure the speaker cables would work fine.
Hams have all the answers, here is an article and several references for using ordinary zip cord and speaker cables as antenna feeds. I post it but past experience is you never read any of the links.
Zip Cord Transmission Lines and Baluns
Last edited:
Tourny,
Since you seem to prefer less flame on Scott's Grail quest and we can't even agree on basics my analogy and explanation for you as you came late to the party.
How does lightning know to hit the ground? Actually some around here will point out it goes from the ground up. (Same issue with looking for positive.) Making it even more interesting as to how it finds the cloud.
In a doctoral presentation I attended almost 50 years ago a friend actually photographed the growth and behavior of a spark. Our eyes tell us it is pretty much a case of jumping the shortest path. What he showed was that the energy progresses outward as a spherical wavefront until it met the second electrode. Then as current began to flow a plasma formed along the shortest path and that is what we perceive.
Now my analogy to the pond was that everything is there to support the ripple wave once something starts it.
In the spark pictures it was clear the energy propagated from one electrode to the other. There was no meeting in the middle.
In short there as far as I can tell no theory fits all cases.
Now where this is going concerning loudspeaker wire inductance forming a low pass filter I have no idea. At the audio frequencies involved and the impedance mismatch between the cable and load I expect regular LRC circuit theory to be a good model. It also nicely matches measurements and historical applications.
Since you seem to prefer less flame on Scott's Grail quest and we can't even agree on basics my analogy and explanation for you as you came late to the party.
How does lightning know to hit the ground? Actually some around here will point out it goes from the ground up. (Same issue with looking for positive.) Making it even more interesting as to how it finds the cloud.
In a doctoral presentation I attended almost 50 years ago a friend actually photographed the growth and behavior of a spark. Our eyes tell us it is pretty much a case of jumping the shortest path. What he showed was that the energy progresses outward as a spherical wavefront until it met the second electrode. Then as current began to flow a plasma formed along the shortest path and that is what we perceive.
Now my analogy to the pond was that everything is there to support the ripple wave once something starts it.
In the spark pictures it was clear the energy propagated from one electrode to the other. There was no meeting in the middle.
In short there as far as I can tell no theory fits all cases.
Now where this is going concerning loudspeaker wire inductance forming a low pass filter I have no idea. At the audio frequencies involved and the impedance mismatch between the cable and load I expect regular LRC circuit theory to be a good model. It also nicely matches measurements and historical applications.
Last edited:
It started with jn's hobby horse ITD, as part of the discussion we showed that both techniques give the same answer. As inappropriate as it seems to some impedance matching concepts do relate to the phase delay and time it takes to fill the line with energy. Maybe he can elaborate.
BTW Ben Franklin didn't have spark pictures he made up the convention in the days of the aether and phlogiston.
Last edited:
ADSL works at 5G with 50 dB of line loss. Based on your observations if you had this much loudspeaker loss others would hear it but you wouldn't.
Tilt means change in level as frequency changes. (Just to communicate better.)
1 dB of tilt over the audio band may be a perceptible limit for some. 3 dB is probably a problem for most folks.
Even constant impedance lines such as coaxial cables have tilt. Now why you are putting up so much smoke is a different issue.
Abvr mk cmnc dfclt.
What does interaural time delay enter into loudspeaker wire? Virtually everybody uses close to equal lengths if for no other property than matching damping factor.
Are you going to be bringing up another neonazi website to support one of your positions?
sigh...which one? The leader, or the return stroke which typically is up to five times stronger and lasts longer?
lightening knows exactly where to go, it has an innate drive. It has intelligence
I have seen it do far more than that. I have seen video pictures of it going up stairwells avoiding walls ceiling and stairs, rounding corners..even wooden doors can't hold it back for long. It patiently knocks on the door, and waits for Marvin the Martian to open the door, and ZAPP. Nailed. Bugs Bunny would never lie to us!!
luckily, in the intervening 50 years, we have learned considerably more
well, if you go with incorrect understandings from 50 years ago, yah theory won't fit.
Jn
Sigh...to what end? Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome...
Ok...remember, this is a high speed discussion, and EXACTLY duplicates what is seen using the RLC model..
A 20 foot 150 ohm T-line feeding an 8 ohm load.. Drive a step function at the amp end 80 volts 1 nSec rise time. How long until the load settles to 80 volts? Remember, it reflects inverted, and it will settle in the tens of microseconds. So the load current can only rise in the tens of micros.
If the load is 150 ohms, it will have it's final current the instant the signal propagates, say 50 nanoseconds prop time.
As the load goes over line z, delays again occur. The fastest response is when line matches load. And again, there is a comparable mathematical derivation using L and C of the wire in classical analysis.
When the load is a speaker, there is a frequency dependent component to the load impedance. If the system is driven very small signal,the settling times will be symmetrical and localization imaging may or may not be affected or discernible.
However, when a dynamic driver is being pushed hard, it's frequency dependent impedance will be dependent on many factors including cone position, cone acceleration, cone velocity. If left and right cones break symmetry (as in a stereo signal), these impedance variations will alter the settling time (phase delay) at the time level well above the known thresholds of inter aural delay capabilities as measured in humans.
I have not seen anybody out there even identifying these effects, the best I've seen so far is rudimentary and only half correct. However, it's the best you have to work with now. I don't see these understandings of speakers filtering out into the wild for at least 15 years. It will take measuring the full spectrum impedance of a driver while it is being pushed hard, this is not the same as pushing a sine and measuring response. I have not seen anyone even hint at thinking about that never mind coming up with a test methodology, the understanding is just not there yet.
There, I said it..I hope your happy Scott..
I just "scoffed in the general direction" of some very smart people...I know my explanation is too brief...sorry
Jn
Ps.. Maybe 20 years. I gave 10 years for people to figure out and understand the bi-wire analysis, that prediction went down in flames about 8 years ago.
Pps. As to Ben Franklin, he had a 50% chance of being right...
Last edited:
Bass notes have HF that can vary 5 or 6 octave, usually topping out around 5kHz. The more attack the more HF, ( Fourier, and your ears). Almost all bass cabs have a HF driver. Are the strings flat or round wound, plucked, picked, or slapped, what kind of EQ, compression, etc. Not to mention what note you play. All makes a dfference to the attack.
IMHO the attack will sound different with HF hearing loss just like it will sound different thru a LP filter. Try one on a slapped bass to see. But the hearing loss would have to go down too 1or 2khz. A snare drum is another story.
I cannot imagine an audio amplifier that would supply 80V step with 1ns rise time into any load, not only into the matched or unmatched cable. 1 ns rise time would make F(-3dB) = 350 MHz. Pretty hard task for any audio power amplifier. If it is a very good one, it would have BW = 350kHz which makes 1us rise time and the theoretical output would look like exponential curve with Tr = 1us. This could be achieved only if amp input was from a fast signal generator and the amp had no input RC filter. With music signal, the fastest signal rise time might be about 10us. 20 feet of the cable would have propagation delay (and reflections) about 36ns. Not much reflections would be produced by a signal with 10us rise time, which is about 300x longer time than the propagation delay on 20 feet of the cable. So I do not see any possible audible phenomenon here.
Aw come on Ed, 30+ years ago in school they were teaching this correctly where the leader heads down from the cloud (whilst at the same time going up in the cloud) and then when it reaches the ground the discharge goes back the other way.
And lightning doesn't always hit the ground!
You have missed the point entirely. I apologize for the brevity of my post, as I tire of repeating the same thing over and over so kept it short. (Too short I guess..sorry)
The analysis has absolutely nothing to do with amplifiers driving 1nSec signals. I could have said femptosecond, or simply an ideal step...same thing. The only requirement is that the step signal have a slew rate sufficiently faster that twice the transit time for clarity.
This is a step response analysis of a system, commonly used in other engineering disciplines.
What it shows is that given a line to load mismatch, the system does not settle to final value as one would think. It will settle based on the cable z, mismatch, and length (or classically, a lumped element LC line).
So I do not care about 1nSec response... I care that a typical zip cord 20 feet long driving an 8 ohm load will have a load impedance dependent phase shift. I care that the load impedance is dependent on the time history and instantaneous state of the load.
I care about soundstage quality, and soundstage quality requires time/phase accuracy and stability in the regime below 10 uSec.
Jn
Pavel, perhaps it would help if you consider a T-line and it's energy storage. At any instant in time, the total energy stored within a cable is the sum of it's inductive storage and it's capacitive storage. When a signal is propagating down a line, the inductive and capacitive energy is exactly the same, that is by definition what characteristic impedance of e/m signal propagation is, in free air, waveguides, cables. A speaker loading a zip cannot receive intended energy within one prop delay. Exactly one prop delay after launch, the cable has exactly identical C and L energy storage. It is only after many reflections that the cable will be supporting the current and voltage the amp had intended for the load. If the load is very low, the bulk of the cable energy storage is inductive building up via multiple reflections, and amps have no issue. However, when the bulk of the cable energy is capacitive by multiple reflections with a much higher load impedance, then a hot amp may oscillate. Hence zobels for when the load unloads sufficiently on a low z cable below unity gain.
Last edited:
Bloody amateurs!
Selenium Products | JBL Professional
Semantics aside, why would it even matter for audio, to have it? I mean, to have a word to describe the effect where high frequencies go slower through air than low frequencies?
The highest pressure gradients in audio are to be found in horn throats. If the effect were to play a role in audio, this would be the place to find it. In analogy with fiber optics, an appropriate name for the effect would indeed be dispersion.
I consider this an opportunity to learn and since I am no expert in this field I tried to find references as to the effect. A good hit was "What is non linearity in sound propagation?
What is nonlinearity in sound propagation? - Department of Informatics
At first glance, that is. The experiment described involves a pulse emitted at 2MHz by a circular transducer 1 cm in diameter. The relevance to audio seems peripheral.
On to our brothers of the AES. "Reduction of distortion in conical horn loudspeakers in conical horn loudspeakers at high levels." Free download:
(PDF) Reduction of distortion in conical horn loudspeakers at high levels
Quote Distortion effects at high sound levels in a horn, i.e. compression sound, can be caused by non-linearity due to the speaker element itself, non-linear compliance in the closed back chamber, turbulence in constrictions or bends, and nonlinear propagation in narrow constrictions or in the front chamber [1], [2]. The two last sources can be reduced by careful shaping of bends, and avoidance of a front chamber. Also, at the relatively low sound pressures used here, they will often be small. Unquote
In other words, at the horn throat, the non-linearity of air does not seem to be of particular concern. The word 'dispersion' is not used in the paper to describe it.
However, the possibility cannot be excluded, that some engineers might use this word in that context. It would be quite a joke indeed, if at both ends of a horn, effects were to occur, that both go under the name of dispersion.
You have to give him a break, he wasn't in school 30 years ago...
Or 40 years ago for that matter.
I venture to say most of us weren't.
In fact, I learned a lot on this by being a member of this forum. Remember that strange guy with his weird "understandings" about lightning and grounding? I popped a lot of scholarly googlestuff on that including Martzloff et al.. I was designing the cable tray/wiring scheme for an 800 meter circumference machine at the time so did really have to learn this stuff. And, I wasn't so much worried about cloud to ground hits. Cloud to cloud horizontal bolts were aligned to couple inductively much more on the machine.
Jn
- Status
- Not open for further replies.