I have actually done a lot of this. It sometimes works well but other times it is not so good. Harman claim a great deal of success at this, but have never published anything. I have found that a recording of a sound system in a home listening room is just not very accurate. However, many years back we did this kind of thing for cars and found it work well. Maybe room size is a factor. If this could be worked out to a close approximation it would make subjective testing infinitely easier.
I did all this, and yes it is required. The bigger problem is playback as the playback headphones need to be calibrated in the same way. This is not so easy.
I have dummy ears and canals - they are quite common. The head shape is actually secondary to the ear shape. I have seen bowling balls used, also mannequins.
This is precisely correct and the one area where I, and others, differ from Toole/Olive. The point is that the rest of what they say is undisputed - except by the "Don't bother me with data, I know what I hear" crowd.
Even Floyd is changing his position a bit since his book.
I wouldn't call it an obsession. It's more a quest for some answers.
...answers that a very rare in the subjective domain.
Good point.
And i think that's the core of the problem: the correct question is not what we might think it is.
The good question is probably:
''Which sound system people enjoy the most ?"
...Now, would people prefer ''colored'' or ''hi-fi'' sound ? Would they constantly prefer completely flatten FR or else ?
Also, can we spot a difference Male/Female, Young/Old, Audiophile/Non-audiophile...
All potentially very interesting answers.
Following this logic, we are not allowed to like what we like, or enjoy what we enjoy.
No, we must be slaves to what is deemed "best". We must follow those who will not allow listening to audio (heaven forbid!) it has to be qualified by some metric that they find important.
Maybe not everyone is obsessed with Best.
No, we must be slaves to what is deemed "best". We must follow those who will not allow listening to audio (heaven forbid!) it has to be qualified by some metric that they find important.
Maybe not everyone is obsessed with Best.
I don't follow you, Pano.
Who says not allowed ?
Look the Google searches stats and trends... Everyday people look for ''Best this or that''... Why ? Because they need answers. They need some guideline. They don't have the time or the will to try each and every options there is on all the subjects we're surrounded in a human's life.
Now.. You're perfectly allowed to be in the 0.01% in the human population to like or dislike something. If that happens.
But do we know for a fact, just yet, if B&W 800D will be crushed so bad by the Sonus Faber's ? We don't. Keep hope.
Joe, there are plenty of people on the audio forums who have great disdain for anyone who simply listens to audio. They love to deride simple listening as inadequate and useless. This seems very strange to me, as the whole point of audio is to listen to it. In a home context, audio is not a tool, not a scientific instrument, it's a pleasant illusion. Entertainment.
I also see people so caught up in what is Best, they can't see the forest for the trees. Maybe Best is irrelevant to what you want. Maybe Best won't make you happy, if that's your goal. Why does everything have to be "The Best"?
I also see people so caught up in what is Best, they can't see the forest for the trees. Maybe Best is irrelevant to what you want. Maybe Best won't make you happy, if that's your goal. Why does everything have to be "The Best"?
I understand.
Some people enjoy listening music while some others like to listen an audio system (or his components...)
But i think it's not a clear-cut case of ''There are two kinds of people in the world...''
It's not black and white, and there are more than 50 shades of grey
Yesterday i was in full-audiophile-engineer mode with my home system. Right now i'm at the office, enjoying the latest Beach House album on... a Minijambox.
And i'm allowed to do so.
It's two different activities: listening music and playing/building sound systems.
Also, ''Best'' is only a word...
For many people that is only a shortcut word to ''Help me take a decision'' or ''I want the maximum pleasure'' or ''You should really try that''...
It's also useful to attract attention on a thread that, finally, leads to some very interesting discussions with... the best people.
For many people that is only a shortcut word to ''Help me take a decision'' or ''I want the maximum pleasure'' or ''You should really try that''...
It's also useful to attract attention on a thread that, finally, leads to some very interesting discussions with... the best people.
I agree, not cut and dried or black and white. But there are some very strong tendencies. Some claim to reject measurements and engineering altogether, but I suspect they don't really.
The obsession with best, Best, BEST! I find puzzling. Maybe it's from a lifetime of advertising brainwashing. There are other ways of looking at the world.
Some claim to reject measurements and engineering altogether, but I suspect they don't really.The obsession with best, Best, BEST! I find puzzling. Maybe it's from a lifetime of advertising brainwashing. There are other ways of looking at the world.
Uhh... $8k is a bit steep for us poor diy'ers here. That is why I suggested a low or (no cost STL model) and a pair of calibrated mics we can attach ourselves.
$8k is high for even someone who buys Voxativ drivers made from unobtanium balsa wood cones.
If working in the subjective domain, "best" is something asked of yourself. Unless you've surrendered to me-tooism. Group subjectivity is meaningless oxymoron.
The objective domain is where the science is, where progress is only impeded by notions of preference. There is a duty to the assembled data.
Adherents from both sides seem capable of creating a clash where none should exist.
The objective domain is where the science is, where progress is only impeded by notions of preference. There is a duty to the assembled data.
Adherents from both sides seem capable of creating a clash where none should exist.
are you familiar with Dr. Toole and Olive at jbl/harman? they have built a very special testing room. Toole experiments show clearly that people, no matter their experience in listening to hi fidelity system, yong/old/women/men prefer the most correct technical speaker. ie, the prefered speaker is the one that show the best measurements, best on axis and off axis behavior, the most flat response, ect.
so, measured accuracy does correlate to listeners preference and so what is ''best'' has been quite clearly demonstrated.
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: Part 3 - Relationship between Loudspeaker Measurements and Listener Preferences
so, measured accuracy does correlate to listeners preference and so what is ''best'' has been quite clearly demonstrated.
Audio Musings by Sean Olive: Part 3 - Relationship between Loudspeaker Measurements and Listener Preferences
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I actually bought four dozens of this dummy head mic, to simulate a crowd in awe listening to my line arrays made of Voxativ drivers that are intended to my second villa in Spain. For outdoor use. Near the pool. Where my pet white tigers are kept.
Yeah, I once got a "oh no, another one who listens to music" and "you're better off on the music forum" because I like to fine tune my designs by listening to music.
You can do all the tests you like, spout all the technical mumbo-jumbo you like but, at the end of the day, if you aren't enjoying the music coming from your speakers then you've missed the point.
You can do all the tests you like, spout all the technical mumbo-jumbo you like but, at the end of the day, if you aren't enjoying the music coming from your speakers then you've missed the point.
+1
I thought the fine-tuning by listening to music was a mandatory step in the process of making a design
Pano
You know, of course, that I could not disagree with you more.
It has been shown that people get acclimated to what they listen to regularly. Thus they come to like certain degraded aspects of the sound and they "prefer" it. Some even like highly inaccurate sound, which, to me, is not H-Fi and not why I do all this.
Toole/Olive have shown that in blind tests "preference" follows "accuracy". Not everyone will agree with this, but the majority do. And to say that accuracy is not what you want, that's fine, you can do that, but to me that position is absurd. I want to hear what I was intended to hear.
Now if preference did not follow accuracy then we would have a problem, because we would have to choose one or the other. Fortunately this is not the case.
Notice that I never used the word "best", it isn't needed. Your the one who seems obsessed with the word and I am not sure why that is.
You know, of course, that I could not disagree with you more.
It has been shown that people get acclimated to what they listen to regularly. Thus they come to like certain degraded aspects of the sound and they "prefer" it. Some even like highly inaccurate sound, which, to me, is not H-Fi and not why I do all this.
Toole/Olive have shown that in blind tests "preference" follows "accuracy". Not everyone will agree with this, but the majority do. And to say that accuracy is not what you want, that's fine, you can do that, but to me that position is absurd. I want to hear what I was intended to hear.
Now if preference did not follow accuracy then we would have a problem, because we would have to choose one or the other. Fortunately this is not the case.
Notice that I never used the word "best", it isn't needed. Your the one who seems obsessed with the word and I am not sure why that is.
Zuhl, you need to understand that sound reproduction and sound production are not the same thing. Enjoying the music can happen with any poor sound system and one can try and reproduce the sound of trains as accurately as possible - which isn't even music.
An appreciation of the music and the appreciation of its reproduction are two entirely different things - not everyone can or is interested in both. Hence it is best not to lump them together like they are one and the same thing. It only confuses the discussion.
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