Funniest snake oil theories

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nobody was talking about staying alive, why are you changing the subject? :)

Well if you don't mind staying alive, what's next? I don't know about motivational books, you got the wrong man, your instincts don't work that good no wonder you don't appreciate them. Love is a personal contract to you but not to Nature. She doesn't care about your personal happiness in a relationship, she just wants healthy sons.
 
Fast and Slow thinking

I think the ideas in "Thinking, Fast and Slow" by Daniel Kahneman could be relevant to this topic. I have not read the book but heard a long radio talk with the author.

Kahneman says we have these two modes of thinking, I would suggest that the subjectivists are using his Fast thinking and engineering types use Slow thinking or as Kahneman also calls them "System 1" and "System 2".

"System 2" uses more energy so System 1 is the default setting for everyday thinking and it is very good at most things and saves energy, but it makes mistakes like believing cables are directional. To get to the truth you often need to spend a little more energy and time using sytem 2 thinking. Double blind testing takes a lot of time and energy.

People are just using (sometimes badly) what evolution has given us. But I must admit to annoyance when people are obviously (to me) using the the wrong mode. I think mr_push_pull's laugh is a sane way to deal with the situation as I have tried everything to convince some people with no success what so ever.
 
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I don't think 'System 1' believes in cables. I think you are confusing things. Foolish thinking believes in foolish things, that's got nothing to do with what I was talking about. Anyway this would get us soon into a land of confusion so it's better to drop the subject.
 
IMO instinct is becoming and obsoleted part of the human mind. damn it, even love has very clearly-defined rules and most relationships that just "follow their instinct" don't last :) not even talking about engineering, if it isn't obvious.
...love... and engineering...
Is it really so much of a difference?
:D

You can love without sophisticated skill set - mostly by emotion and intuition. But a basic skill set is helpful for keeping the fire alive forever (or for a one night stand).

You can engineer without emotion and intuition - mostly by a sophisticated skill set. But emotion and intuition is helpful for lovely designs.
 
This has all got too deep for me!

Going back to basics, you can't prove that the more 'fanciful' audio treatments work, and you can't prove they don't. The only thing you can do, it seems to me, is to look at the people who promote them, and ask whether you trust in their knowledge, ability, integrity. Is it possible that the whole cable industry is based on wishful thinking? Yes. Is it possible that some cable manufacturers are sincere and truly believe they have the secret knowledge that can transform the music with a directional cable? It's possible they believe it. Is it also possible that some manufacturers are enjoying themselves immensely, safe in the knowledge that their product can't really fail? - they know the punters couldn't tell the difference between pure gold and rusty barbed wire (and that measurements couldn't even show the difference). Of course.

Can anyone actually give a real reason why their $10,000 cable is better than my £2 one (without simply invoking the 'they're more robust' diversion)? No.
 
Being wrong or right can be astonishingly important. Just ask any surgeon or pilot.
the typical argument is "this is only audio/it's only fun etc".
so it can be done wrong :)
actually, many of the audio discussions I've seen online make me not want to meet some of the guys in real life, it's not even funny anymore for me. moreover, I would quote George Carlin and say that many of the audio forums employ too much of this "soft language", that, in all honesty, starts to make me sick. I see the most blatantly false things being responded with "I beg to differ" and it's ridiculous. too many discussions make me think they should be met with a "shut your trap".
which is more of a problem as, IME, all audio forums seem to become commercial at one point.
call it offensive, it is how I think.
 
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The simple answer is..

If you can't hear a capacitor..your not going to hear cable (speaker or other), your not going to hear rectifiers, your not going to hear tube types or anything else...

Now the question is
1 The system is not well designed if you can hear any of these..
2 The system is covering the sound of the components in some way if you can't hear them..
3 The band width is in some way different on a super fi system?

Now if manufacturers think you can hear a difference..then the systems must be showing the components "Sound"..ie it is not masked... or the systems are all inferior..so most High end systems would seem to show this change because its where the pricing is aimed for the "Snake Oil"..
Why make silver OP Tx's if its all rubbish..why use them in high end gear?
Why have paper in oil caps because in most systems they sound rubbish..compared to Polypropylene?

OK its a marketing stunt..that has worked for years...or is it?
The only other thing is the hype and price attract people that like to have "The best"= money..
Money does not mean anything..its interesting that "Silver" and "Gold" are the thing to have<<<strange isn't it..
Lead is a "no"...

The next thing is..if you can make an ongaku with standard components and have it sound the same why is it so hard to do?
Why haven't we all got one or something similar? (Why are we all struggling to make high end if its not realy hard or expensive to do?)

The final bit is why can Bob Carver do it without audio note parts?...a circuit is just a circuit correct?

Regards
M. Gregg
 
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the typical argument is "this is only audio/it's only fun etc".
so it can be done wrong :)
actually, many of the audio discussions I've seen online make me not want to meet some of the guys in real life, it's not even funny anymore for me. moreover, I would quote George Carlin and say that many of the audio forums employ too much of this "soft language", that, in all honesty, starts to make me sick. I see the most blatantly false things being responded with "I beg to differ" and it's ridiculous. too many discussions make me think they should be met with a "shut your trap".
which is more of a problem as, IME, all audio forums seem to become commercial at one point.
call it offensive, it is how I think.

I'm with you there Mr P P. Allowing the dumbing down of audio electronics and electroacoustics won't help improve reproduced sound in general in the long run.
Atb,
SS
 
There's also something to be said for the value of voodoo. Placebo works, even when the subject knows it's supposed to be placebo.

Naturally voodoo tweaking to excite the placebo effect and POSSIBLY some meaningful improvement is best applied by DIY, where your tweaks aren't $60 for a stupid phone call (yep, the Machina Dynamica teleportation tweak), but something that is informed by SOME understanding and is generally going to be very inexpensive to play with.
 
There's also something to be said for the value of voodoo. Placebo works, even when the subject knows it's supposed to be placebo.

Naturally voodoo tweaking to excite the placebo effect and POSSIBLY some meaningful improvement is best applied by DIY, where your tweaks aren't $60 for a stupid phone call (yep, the Machina Dynamica teleportation tweak), but something that is informed by SOME understanding and is generally going to be very inexpensive to play with.

But what when your self-administered placebo wears off? I imagine you have to move up to the next grade of placebo, and where does that end? Yes, the $10,000 dollar cable.
 
Do any members of DIYAudio reading this thread possess any cables that cost more than, say, £40 i.e. the maximum price you'd have to pay for a length of professional-grade cable with a couple of very decent connectors and leaving enough for a decent profit for the manufacturer? If so, why did you feel you had to buy them? Was it knowingly a self-administered placebo, or did you feel you understood something remarkable about the physical form of the cable that made it worth the money, compared to, say, upgrading your speakers or amplifier?

Just trying to square the idea of a DIY-er who knows exactly what's involved in making a cable, crediting someone else with such remarkable and secret knowledge that it justifies spending fifty times more than is required for a simple, robust, professional interconnect.
 
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But what when your self-administered placebo wears off? I imagine you have to move up to the next grade of placebo, and where does that end? Yes, the $10,000 dollar cable.

I think,

we have to take this in context..eg I always mark the ends of my cable so I know where the drain wire is connected..If the system no longer appeals then in non DIY situation you would buy another one..

I think there is two ways to this in DIY..

1 build a system standard without strange parts..ie with standard good components..and leave it alone unless you are going to alter the circuit.

2 Start looking at esoteric gear and build assuming that with standard parts it will not sound the same (If you are cloning)

The problem is...most people build standard but the "Draw" of what if it was esoteric...what would it sound like..of course if its done correctly there should be no change in sound...should there?

Some people want esoteric systems..however they can't because of cost or they want to "dabble" try this and that<nothing wrong with doing this for fun..thats when the problems start, because some people believe they hear a difference..for whatever reason..

So whats wrong with building something with preferred parts..ie over and above function..and then having a system you are more comfortable with?

If you could make caps in DIY a lot of people would try..If the result can't be measured then esoteric gear is built with preferred parts..people like the sound..or not...and buy how they feel...

However you won't make a silk purse out of a sows ear..if the circuit is flawed then its flawed and no amount of tweaking will overcome this..
the problem is this..if you make two identical systems and use esoteric ideas on one..does it sound the same? If it does there is no argument.

People talk about synergy<<<the sum greater than the individual parts..
Is this true? That if you tweak one part of the system it will make it worse? Ie its either esoteric or standard..

If you have a great amp and speakers with a cheap front end it will sound worse? Why should it?<<devil's advocate..

Regards
M. Gregg
 
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Do any members of DIYAudio reading this thread possess any cables that cost more than, say, £40.

Money has nothing to do with it<<<not from a DIY point of view..(except for caps)

Make your own..or select "Good cable" for interconnects..

I tried some Belden rubber Mic cable just to see and it was absolute rubbish...However Van den hul made some cheap LCOFC super flex its quite good..:D

If you remove the esoteric then this site becomes DIY audio engineering<<Now if there was no appeal to esoteric where is the DIY engineering site?

When I was at school and an electronics DIYer.. I went to my friends house and said why have you got mains solid core on your speakers?????
I was only 14-15 years old I could hear a change and I hade no understanding of audiophile ideas..
He said it sounds different "someone told him"..I said a wire is a wire what a load of C**p...he said listen and changed the mains cable to bell wire.....er I could hear a difference..he put it back and I could hear a difference...I could not understand it<<I was not an audio type I just built maplin chip amps and record players etc...

His system was a pioneer set up.. bottom end of the market<<<why could I hear a change????? I was convinced it was complete rubbish untill he changed the cables..Its not about spending the price of a house on cables its about doing the best you can with what you have..
I was 14-15 years old I could hear a difference and I had no ideas about audiophile stuff..I spent months trying to ask teachers and reading to see why I could hear a change..It drove me nuts..I couldn't tell him a wire was just a wire he had demonstrated it..

That was the next one..Listening to a meridian set up in an audio shop..he said have you heard the audio mains cables..after I picked myself up off the floor laughing he said listen to this and plugged this strange looking plated thing in the back of the meridian transport..and I hate to say it I could hear it...I don't know what I could hear but there seemed to be a change..Better to stick to engineering don't venture down the rabbit hole...thats my advice..

Regards
M. Gregg
 
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Disabled Account
Joined 2010
Final comment linked to the above post time out..

PS I spent some time researching this and made some mains cables for fun..I took them into the shop and I could beat the ones he showed me on the same equipment..
Using the ideas from the manufacturers site..
Do I use them now..no..I can't be bothered ..however I do use them inside my own amps..so they are not an add on.. :)
Don't try this at home remember the regs<<and standards for safety
I did it because I wanted to find out what was going on..

Regards
M. Gregg
 
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Disabled Account
Joined 2004
Let people believe in what they want to believe - it's none of your business. What do you think you are doing here, reforming the world? Haha. Carrying the torch of light? Hahaha. Threads like this are hilarious but not because of people who like spending large sums of money on strange gadgets. Don't you guys have better things to do? I don't know how I got involved in this thread - my instincts led me astray. :(
 
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I don't know how I got involved in this thread - my instincts led me astray. :(

:D..My honest answer is keep it all standard and work with the circuits..

The amount of work and heart ache is not worth the gain..

the above is an honest comment..yes you can do esoteric..and play..keep it standard use a few selected parts and have fun..

Cassiel your equipment is esoteric anyway it has some great ideas..I thought your photos " the one with the gear on the front" was inspired..

Regards
M. Gregg
 
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