As most will realize my special interest is idler driven turntables . I will be designing a new turntable soon if allowed ( it's lights at amber when it was red until now ) . Alas it will not be idler as the cost would be too high . My guess two years time and mostly a caprice , the world really doesn't need this turntable . If the price is good it will be justified . In the style of Nottingham Analogue would be good enough for me . What I will try to do is make the unseen things last longer than me ( me being a man of my 60 years rather than me exactly ) . I know a bit about engines . It costs pennies more to do it right . If anyone has ideas to equal an idler without the watchmakers skills of idler please speak . A 1954 Philips belt drive with tentioner set me thinking . The dual capstan of a tape deck . The multiple motor decks where all run slightly different speeds ( all made the same , it is just reality when a belt that they do ) . One idea is to use leader tape ( 1/4 inch ) as the belt . The elasticity of the standard belt that makes cheap turntable work well is ultimately the downfall . The belt is slightly interacting with the music . Fancy sand paper if you like jolting the belt . The difference between good and great is micro detail ( sub -40 dB my best guess ) . Verdier in France not only spoke of it but published full plans to build . I don't think I ever saw a copy that understood what he said . I hope to meet him one day . My suspicion is the Lenco will sound better than mine or Verdiers best efforts . Luck is on our side . Most do not want to know a Lenco is good . Do I have the lack of integrity to build my belt drive ? I suspect I do .
The one in the link was the show stopper ( Whittlebury UK ) . If time allows I shall start a project with one . It would be smaller than a 401 which would be welcome .
http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/assets/hfn_inspire-enigma.pdf
John Curl asked if Lenco's are better than LP12's a year or so ago . I think they are and might be less coloured . I still have an LP12 if asking ( Ekos ) . What gets me is no one spoke of this when Lenco's were in production . It is almost to me that hi fi needs an evangelist for people to hear what should be obvious . This leads to a disturbing judgement . How many involved in hi fi have prejudices so large that they never yet have properly listened to music ? I can be one of them so accept the judgement .
When soldering to gold . Is the 4% silver + tin alloy solder a good idea ?
Terry of Loricraft send you his best . Garrard used Shell Tellus 27 he says as lubricant .
The one in the link was the show stopper ( Whittlebury UK ) . If time allows I shall start a project with one . It would be smaller than a 401 which would be welcome .
http://www.inspirehifi.co.uk/assets/hfn_inspire-enigma.pdf
John Curl asked if Lenco's are better than LP12's a year or so ago . I think they are and might be less coloured . I still have an LP12 if asking ( Ekos ) . What gets me is no one spoke of this when Lenco's were in production . It is almost to me that hi fi needs an evangelist for people to hear what should be obvious . This leads to a disturbing judgement . How many involved in hi fi have prejudices so large that they never yet have properly listened to music ? I can be one of them so accept the judgement .
When soldering to gold . Is the 4% silver + tin alloy solder a good idea ?
Terry of Loricraft send you his best . Garrard used Shell Tellus 27 he says as lubricant .
This begs the question: what's the point?
Disregarding for the moment the sheer pleasure of making it and owning something you have made with your own two hands, exactly how is an idler drivet TT superior to a belt drive, or the direct drive for that matter?
The second hand market is literally flooded with various units from yesteryear, yes, including the well known Lenco 75, for peanut money. For example, locally they are offered at around 100 quid a pop, and in fairly good condition. Wouldn't it be a better idea to buy one of these, arm and all, then restore it properly, and why not, tune it up a bit?
The current vogue is Technics SL-1200. There are legends spun around it, and while I agree it was a good TT, I honestly fail to see what makes it great. To me, it's a solid product, definitely Technics' all time bestseller, but no more than that.
I think such legends were in fact perpetuated by the TT manufacturers themselves, at least in part. They used to supply it ready to play right out of the box, and in many cases, this included a cheaper cartridge, even if it was from Audio Technica or Shure, typicalla 75 or 95, V15 III only on top tier models. My own Dual CS604 was equipped with one Audio Technica or another, but in any case, cheap'n'cheerful. Once exchanged for Ortofon, and I have both models FF15 Mk.II (higher output) and LM20 (lower output but also less mass), the TT came on song. Not the best ever made by any means, but certainly MOST reasonable for the price (it's a DD).
And I can tell you that sound wise, it did better than its predecessor, Dual 1019, which was an idler drive motor. Especially the bass, both in extenstion and quality, were much better on the DD.
Also, the phono EQ/RIAA amp should be mentioned. I find it does more for the sound than the TT, I think.
Disregarding for the moment the sheer pleasure of making it and owning something you have made with your own two hands, exactly how is an idler drivet TT superior to a belt drive, or the direct drive for that matter?
The second hand market is literally flooded with various units from yesteryear, yes, including the well known Lenco 75, for peanut money. For example, locally they are offered at around 100 quid a pop, and in fairly good condition. Wouldn't it be a better idea to buy one of these, arm and all, then restore it properly, and why not, tune it up a bit?
The current vogue is Technics SL-1200. There are legends spun around it, and while I agree it was a good TT, I honestly fail to see what makes it great. To me, it's a solid product, definitely Technics' all time bestseller, but no more than that.
I think such legends were in fact perpetuated by the TT manufacturers themselves, at least in part. They used to supply it ready to play right out of the box, and in many cases, this included a cheaper cartridge, even if it was from Audio Technica or Shure, typicalla 75 or 95, V15 III only on top tier models. My own Dual CS604 was equipped with one Audio Technica or another, but in any case, cheap'n'cheerful. Once exchanged for Ortofon, and I have both models FF15 Mk.II (higher output) and LM20 (lower output but also less mass), the TT came on song. Not the best ever made by any means, but certainly MOST reasonable for the price (it's a DD).
And I can tell you that sound wise, it did better than its predecessor, Dual 1019, which was an idler drive motor. Especially the bass, both in extenstion and quality, were much better on the DD.
Also, the phono EQ/RIAA amp should be mentioned. I find it does more for the sound than the TT, I think.
Absolutely correct . My boss has his degree is industrial design . His existing turntable is VPi with Graham arm and Transfiguration PU ( ironic as I am listening to the Liszt pieces of the same name on Radio 3 ) . It would be excellent for him to build at least two ( one for me ) . Being me I will probably still use a Lenco / Garrard .
It will be a challenge to do something more than just sculpture .
I remember Dual 721 as being rather good . Denon direct drives also . 1210 if slightly modified is a reasonable turntable ( plywood chassis ) . I bought a JVC direct drive recently . Not bad . Ultimately DD is not my cup of tea . However most belt drives do not have the dynamics of a good DD . BTW . Most belt drives sound nothing like the cutting lathe ( BD a bit distant and lacking sparkle , jelly sound ) . The cutting lathe sounds like the master tape . CD often sound nothing like an analogue master ( how come no one says that ) . I don't mean the cutting master which shouldn't be used . I mean a serious attempt to make a good copy . Analogue is easier as many takes can be done ( - 3 dB - 6dB - 9 dB ) . Live digital mastering is not as easy . An analogue transfer should present few problems . The engineer should use a first class turntable to get a feel for how EQ's should be set ( 1210 with Ortofon would be fine ) . Often CD transfers can excel in tonality . The problem seems to be it sounds like a tribute band . Vocals often seem to be a stand-in performers ( bass harmonics missing ) . CD player are far better these days . None the less all of my friends use Vinyl as their prime source .
As to price on a turntable I can not say . My constant theme with my boss is only those who sell at the lowest possible price ever make money .
I hope to have an announcement which should prove that at the Munich show . Something with a 51 year history at last made at a price that most can afford . A design of an Oxford man . I have no absolute price yet . I will be very upset if we fail on that . To be honest I can not see how we can do the price . It isn't made in China .
It will be a challenge to do something more than just sculpture .
I remember Dual 721 as being rather good . Denon direct drives also . 1210 if slightly modified is a reasonable turntable ( plywood chassis ) . I bought a JVC direct drive recently . Not bad . Ultimately DD is not my cup of tea . However most belt drives do not have the dynamics of a good DD . BTW . Most belt drives sound nothing like the cutting lathe ( BD a bit distant and lacking sparkle , jelly sound ) . The cutting lathe sounds like the master tape . CD often sound nothing like an analogue master ( how come no one says that ) . I don't mean the cutting master which shouldn't be used . I mean a serious attempt to make a good copy . Analogue is easier as many takes can be done ( - 3 dB - 6dB - 9 dB ) . Live digital mastering is not as easy . An analogue transfer should present few problems . The engineer should use a first class turntable to get a feel for how EQ's should be set ( 1210 with Ortofon would be fine ) . Often CD transfers can excel in tonality . The problem seems to be it sounds like a tribute band . Vocals often seem to be a stand-in performers ( bass harmonics missing ) . CD player are far better these days . None the less all of my friends use Vinyl as their prime source .
As to price on a turntable I can not say . My constant theme with my boss is only those who sell at the lowest possible price ever make money .
I hope to have an announcement which should prove that at the Munich show . Something with a 51 year history at last made at a price that most can afford . A design of an Oxford man . I have no absolute price yet . I will be very upset if we fail on that . To be honest I can not see how we can do the price . It isn't made in China .
The actual company name is DDM Elektro d.o.o., but it trades under two registered trade marks, DDM Elektro and DeZorel. I own both marks.
However, be warned - I never had a US model, meaning no US sockets at the back. The available choice is European style Schuko or international style IEC. I was always too small to penetrate the US market, although I did send 3 or 4 units over to individuals, one of whom was the late and greatly missed James Bongiorno. That one was of course a gift, a token of my appreciation for the help he kindly gave me over the years, on and off.
And, thanks to the Chinese, I have all but stopped trading, I cannot compete with their prices, and practically nobody is interested in quality any more, people buy by price alone.
@Nigel
There, you said it yourself, DD TTs typically produce better dynamics than any other drive system, especially in the bass department. I find most belt drives to be lacking in that department, producing a slightly coloured sound, in which the bass is somewhat let down, while the mids and treble can be just fine, but the overall top-to-bottom balance has been upset.
My own model is a story unto itself. No other Dual model ever has been on the market for such a short time. This is because it was Dual shooting itself in the foot. It didn't take people long to understand that my model, CS604, played musick just as well as its larger and much more expensive sibling, the 701 and later on 721. So, the unimaginable happened, an orderly que was formed because they couldn't make as many as the market was willing to absorb, and there was an actual waiting list for it. While the sales of the 701/721 slumped.
Dual didn't like that, so after just 8 or 9 months, they "promoted" the 604 to 606, restoring natural order, since the 606 was way below the older 604, but sales of 721 picked up ince again.
I had to order my sample from a dealer in Germany, and then had to wait almost 2 months to have it sent to me. I got it in September, and it was discontinued in October, a narrow call. But it's still with me, and it still makes wonderful music, albeit not with Dual's 430 cartridge (a cheap Audio Technica model, I forgot which), which was decent but no more than that, but with Ortofon's FF15 Mk III or LM 20. I'm still with them, I just change needles every now and then. That TT goes into the grave with me, period.
There, you said it yourself, DD TTs typically produce better dynamics than any other drive system, especially in the bass department. I find most belt drives to be lacking in that department, producing a slightly coloured sound, in which the bass is somewhat let down, while the mids and treble can be just fine, but the overall top-to-bottom balance has been upset.
My own model is a story unto itself. No other Dual model ever has been on the market for such a short time. This is because it was Dual shooting itself in the foot. It didn't take people long to understand that my model, CS604, played musick just as well as its larger and much more expensive sibling, the 701 and later on 721. So, the unimaginable happened, an orderly que was formed because they couldn't make as many as the market was willing to absorb, and there was an actual waiting list for it. While the sales of the 701/721 slumped.
Dual didn't like that, so after just 8 or 9 months, they "promoted" the 604 to 606, restoring natural order, since the 606 was way below the older 604, but sales of 721 picked up ince again.
I had to order my sample from a dealer in Germany, and then had to wait almost 2 months to have it sent to me. I got it in September, and it was discontinued in October, a narrow call. But it's still with me, and it still makes wonderful music, albeit not with Dual's 430 cartridge (a cheap Audio Technica model, I forgot which), which was decent but no more than that, but with Ortofon's FF15 Mk III or LM 20. I'm still with them, I just change needles every now and then. That TT goes into the grave with me, period.
As said my boss will determine the look . What I can share is I want a drive system that might resemble Platine Verdier . Mr V uses a natural fibre chord .
The average hardness of a good turntable bearing is about 55 to 64 Rockwell ( C ) . I have never measured an LP12 . I would assume it to be the 64 end . The polish is first class as is the centering of it's point .It should be pointed out Dual on their cheapest decks almost equal Linn in the bearing department . Dual although out of this world good engineers never deliver a turntable that shows off their care . Perpetuum Ebner a family member might have seen it that way . Rumor has it a rather clinical sound .
Returning to bearings . The hardness of bearings isn't the story . It is care with details . Ideally a flat contact plate . Reality says that is almost impossible ( " almost " ) . A ball set in the bearing end is common practice . This covers up the fact that the bearing was ground on centres . Cheaper than centreless grinding . It is not as good as the way Linn does it .
Verdier uses magnetic levitation to reduce the bearing load . This allows high mass platters to be used . Commonsense suggests high mass is a good idea . Reality says it can spoil the sound ( timing ) . 6 Lbs with the mass to the periphery is a good place to start . My initial thought is to raise bearing hardness to 200 Rockwell ( hacksaw about 85 ) . That sidesteps the need for levitation as long as it is well designed . Easy to tell , the speed doesn't change much with load if correct ( maybe a push start due to mass ) .
Bearing finishes . I read more nonsense about this than any other thing . 6 micron is fine , 1 micron is easy to do . We do it because we can and no other reason . How round the bearings is ( never discussed ) is key . Then how square . In my previous company we subcontracted this to the worlds most famous pick up arm company . They were just asked to do it as if for themselves . It wasn't cheap and it wasn't wrong . People will be surprised how loose a bearing is without oil . That is the exact point . The oil is the bearing and not all the hype you read . If the other factors are wrong usually rumble appears is two weeks . None of this is difficult .
Roy Gandy said to me they do 1 micron as people look at bearings for whatever reason . He said if buying enough the cost is OK . Fuel injectors are to that tolerance . So go to people who do them . You can polish to that standard using chrome polish on the lathe ( naughty ) . Some say superfine finish off the lathe is good enough . With the chrome polish and/or jewelers rouge I guess it is . Ideally consult on hardening if so .
Motors and drives are where we all fail . My quest will be a motor I can trust . I like hysteresis motors best of all . They are almost synchronous and have very low vibration with no obvious window squaring of the sine-wave ( squeezing the sine-wave into a stepper slot ) . There were wonderful Papst of old . I don't think they exist now .
BTW Dvv . Martina I spoke of is family friend of the people at Dual . They still make a few and could make as many as anyone likes if asked . Martina was Thorens parts lady when I first met her . She loves the TD126 , the one everyone ignored . TD124 has better engineering than Garrard and yet fails to do the job . If the two companies had produced together who knows . The Thornes motor is not quite good enough . The bearing although beautiful to look at is slightly cheaply made ( I still love it and will probably do exactly the same ) . The platter is highly resonant yet has generous amounts of metal . I suspect that wasn't considered . The bottom line is the Lenco 75 possibly is better . The TD124 shown in Hi Fi World was mine . I wish I could say about EMT . Never had one at home .
If someone wants to read about motors . 6 pole are used in ventilation systems . My last was for medical use . 50% retained , 50% our own design . Good to have a motor 80% suitable . In a Garrard it must run backwards . That was a problem . There is no phase capacitor to make it easy .
Reliance RPM AC Motors-Optimum Pole Configuration
Reliance RPM AC Motors-Optimum Pole Configuration
To the best of my knowledge, by far the best electric motor is a Hall generator motor, because, if memory serves, it has the most uniform magnetic field for the rotor of any and all.
But I suspect that would imply direct drive, control electronics and I suspect Hall generator motors are not cheap. Perhaps you could consider a belt drive using a Hall generator motor. I imagine that would be a first and it might give Linn a permanent headache.
But I suspect that would imply direct drive, control electronics and I suspect Hall generator motors are not cheap. Perhaps you could consider a belt drive using a Hall generator motor. I imagine that would be a first and it might give Linn a permanent headache.
In effect DD and Lenco are the same ( Lenco is my generic for idler drive ) . The great advantage is that such pole pieces as there are pass many times per platter revolution . Do not be deceived by the wheel , it's decoupling is slight . The Lenco especially . The speed of the turntable is not influenced by the idler diameter . It is just a continuous road so to speak . The tolerance for the idler working correctly is tight , sometimes people confuse this with it having a speed function . The shore of the rubber is important . Quality control is very difficult . If too hard and/or too small the torque is reduced . The sound of idler drive is due both to high torque and lack of sharp pole intervals . Hysteresis motors have a quality almost like elastic . As a load is applied they slip . There is a slight drop in speed as the penalty within the load possibilities . With the right motor it is possible to play with this to great advantage . Belt dive people have no great use for this . Torque good , vibration OK = Job done .
The motor I liked very much was a DC servo type with internal sensing . This type was common on tape decks . Yamaha being a good example . These keep speed inside themselves , a contact breaker might supply the speed information . That is ideal as there is no complex feedback from a platter .
I dare say hall effect would be good ( I think Sony might have used that description ) . The big problem is did the designer hit the torque levels we need at low vibration .
The motor I liked very much was a DC servo type with internal sensing . This type was common on tape decks . Yamaha being a good example . These keep speed inside themselves , a contact breaker might supply the speed information . That is ideal as there is no complex feedback from a platter .
I dare say hall effect would be good ( I think Sony might have used that description ) . The big problem is did the designer hit the torque levels we need at low vibration .
Seriously Nigel, have you considered talking to people like SME regarding the tonearm?
Perhaps a stripped down version of one of their existing models? Surely they can OEM for you?
Or, having mentioned Dual, perhaps they could OEM for you to your specs? God knows they have all the technology you could ever wish for.
And BTW, Dual did make an out-and-out model, Golden 1 http://dual.pytalhost.eu/1991/25.jpg , but it came far too late, in 1990, when the end of the LP as THE mainstream sound carrier was almost there. A bit like a swan song. I had it on test at home, and let me tell you, the atrocious gold plating aside, that one could take on any similar product and stand its ground. But it was expensive.
Model 5000 was its cheaper brother http://dual.pytalhost.eu/1986/03.jpg , and it offered microprocessor controlled belt drive and Vertical Tracking Angle, with tonerm lift at the end of the LP. But once again, too late, this one appeared in 1986.
That said, I would prefer a Cosworth tuned car to any other tuned German made car any day. Drive one and you're hooked for life, I drove one way back in the late 60ies (Ford Escort Cosworth), and look where it got me, to making my own car from the ground up, they are highly contageous. So is SME, I imagine.
You know Nige, you Brits have two problems. The first is that everyone and their dog knows best how to do something - while this is a good generator of ideas, 99% of such cottage industry companies fail for lack of financial backing. And you have never managed to get together and pool resources, which is why British Leyland failed, everyone wanted to make their own everything and none had the financial strength for it.
The second is that you really can't be bothered to work hard. It's only when push comes to shove, as in WW2, that you start having brainstorms and start producing incredible ideas and products. Like the De Haviland Mosquito - a WW2 plane made half of plywood, the aerial Lotus, two bloody powerful RR V12 turbo engines and a light chassis resulted in a plane the poor old Messerschmitt ME 109 couldn't catch because it was faster when returning home with no payload. Or the hopalong bombs which took out the two big German dams in 1942 by hopping over the water until they hit cement. Or the Sten sumachine gun - as simple as could be, almost never jammed and was cheap to make. And so forth.
That's where the japanese took out the British audio industry. They talked together, so CEC made turntables on an OEM basis for everyone, sharing many components and making boatloads of them, so per piece they knocked the price down. ALPS made like 70% of all cassette deck mechanics for everyone, so unit price was low.
That's what got the US and the German audio industry as well. Nobody talked to anybody.
I hate to be negative, but I think now is too late for a comeback. You would have to plan your new TT much more specifically today. For example, you would need to have a straight version, just your classic TT, without arm, then a version with the arm, then a version with the arm and cartridge. That is classic, but nowadays, many audio amplification devices don't even have a phono input, so you need a version with a built in phono section, that's what Dual and Lenco did in their day, and let me tell you, they were not bad at it at all, not High End, but quite reasonable. And lastly, you need a full house version, the one with the tonearm, cartridge, RIAA eq and an USB output, so brand new TT buyers can record their LPs directly to their PCs.
Without that, your potential market shrinks ever more, and it's already rather full of competitors, such as Rega, Linn, Mitchell, etc. Let's face it, anything that cannot be uploaded to mobile telephone today is born dead in the water.
Perhaps a stripped down version of one of their existing models? Surely they can OEM for you?
Or, having mentioned Dual, perhaps they could OEM for you to your specs? God knows they have all the technology you could ever wish for.
And BTW, Dual did make an out-and-out model, Golden 1 http://dual.pytalhost.eu/1991/25.jpg , but it came far too late, in 1990, when the end of the LP as THE mainstream sound carrier was almost there. A bit like a swan song. I had it on test at home, and let me tell you, the atrocious gold plating aside, that one could take on any similar product and stand its ground. But it was expensive.
Model 5000 was its cheaper brother http://dual.pytalhost.eu/1986/03.jpg , and it offered microprocessor controlled belt drive and Vertical Tracking Angle, with tonerm lift at the end of the LP. But once again, too late, this one appeared in 1986.
That said, I would prefer a Cosworth tuned car to any other tuned German made car any day. Drive one and you're hooked for life, I drove one way back in the late 60ies (Ford Escort Cosworth), and look where it got me, to making my own car from the ground up, they are highly contageous. So is SME, I imagine.
You know Nige, you Brits have two problems. The first is that everyone and their dog knows best how to do something - while this is a good generator of ideas, 99% of such cottage industry companies fail for lack of financial backing. And you have never managed to get together and pool resources, which is why British Leyland failed, everyone wanted to make their own everything and none had the financial strength for it.
The second is that you really can't be bothered to work hard. It's only when push comes to shove, as in WW2, that you start having brainstorms and start producing incredible ideas and products. Like the De Haviland Mosquito - a WW2 plane made half of plywood, the aerial Lotus, two bloody powerful RR V12 turbo engines and a light chassis resulted in a plane the poor old Messerschmitt ME 109 couldn't catch because it was faster when returning home with no payload. Or the hopalong bombs which took out the two big German dams in 1942 by hopping over the water until they hit cement. Or the Sten sumachine gun - as simple as could be, almost never jammed and was cheap to make. And so forth.
That's where the japanese took out the British audio industry. They talked together, so CEC made turntables on an OEM basis for everyone, sharing many components and making boatloads of them, so per piece they knocked the price down. ALPS made like 70% of all cassette deck mechanics for everyone, so unit price was low.
That's what got the US and the German audio industry as well. Nobody talked to anybody.
I hate to be negative, but I think now is too late for a comeback. You would have to plan your new TT much more specifically today. For example, you would need to have a straight version, just your classic TT, without arm, then a version with the arm, then a version with the arm and cartridge. That is classic, but nowadays, many audio amplification devices don't even have a phono input, so you need a version with a built in phono section, that's what Dual and Lenco did in their day, and let me tell you, they were not bad at it at all, not High End, but quite reasonable. And lastly, you need a full house version, the one with the tonearm, cartridge, RIAA eq and an USB output, so brand new TT buyers can record their LPs directly to their PCs.
Without that, your potential market shrinks ever more, and it's already rather full of competitors, such as Rega, Linn, Mitchell, etc. Let's face it, anything that cannot be uploaded to mobile telephone today is born dead in the water.
I accept all of that .
You are horribly right . This turntable would be a pure caprice . We might even build just two . The boss and myself are analog lunatics .
We are resourced enough to do this . I have spent all the development budget for this year so I doubt we do much except doodle this year . That's why I am back worrying you all .
My company is in fact Swiss so I guess I escape some of the tarnish . However we are both Brits .
I seem to remember turntable sales were 90 000 last year and slightly growing . I dare say that is one large lie . It won't be such a big lie as the people saying it were not out to deceive . I dare say we would be happy with 500 units a year . As I said a pure caprice . If we sold 10 I wouldn't cry . As long as it doesn't pull the company down it is OK . This alas is why things cost money . The risk is so high if wanting volume . The Garrard 301 if made now would need minimum £250 000 tooling . Even so China . No point in doing it as it would be a fake . Japan always says do it and they will buy it . I am sure they wouldn't . It is a fake .
If anyone has a brave idea for a drive lets hear it . Chain drive almost is an idea except for the noises it might make . Lighthouse drive I like . Buy a windmill/light house and have a long cord . Do the maths . It is surprising the amount of cord you need . The older 78's were cut this way . The speed controlled by a braking system and gravity .
You are horribly right . This turntable would be a pure caprice . We might even build just two . The boss and myself are analog lunatics .
We are resourced enough to do this . I have spent all the development budget for this year so I doubt we do much except doodle this year . That's why I am back worrying you all .
My company is in fact Swiss so I guess I escape some of the tarnish . However we are both Brits .
I seem to remember turntable sales were 90 000 last year and slightly growing . I dare say that is one large lie . It won't be such a big lie as the people saying it were not out to deceive . I dare say we would be happy with 500 units a year . As I said a pure caprice . If we sold 10 I wouldn't cry . As long as it doesn't pull the company down it is OK . This alas is why things cost money . The risk is so high if wanting volume . The Garrard 301 if made now would need minimum £250 000 tooling . Even so China . No point in doing it as it would be a fake . Japan always says do it and they will buy it . I am sure they wouldn't . It is a fake .
If anyone has a brave idea for a drive lets hear it . Chain drive almost is an idea except for the noises it might make . Lighthouse drive I like . Buy a windmill/light house and have a long cord . Do the maths . It is surprising the amount of cord you need . The older 78's were cut this way . The speed controlled by a braking system and gravity .
And remember - the deck is stacked against you.
Remember that the public has been brainwashed for decades to accepting only belt or direct drive. I am not aware of anyone making idler drive today. Nobody said explcitily idler drive was bad, it was said implicitly by abandoning it altogether in favor of belt and direct drive.
So, by implication, idler drive is passe, abandoned, simply not in the public eye any more. Restoring it will be a Herculean job unto itself.
Remember that the public has been brainwashed for decades to accepting only belt or direct drive. I am not aware of anyone making idler drive today. Nobody said explcitily idler drive was bad, it was said implicitly by abandoning it altogether in favor of belt and direct drive.
So, by implication, idler drive is passe, abandoned, simply not in the public eye any more. Restoring it will be a Herculean job unto itself.
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Perhaps belt drive using a toothed belt? That would give you lots of torque, but I suspet you might have construct a speed control.
A toothed belt like those driving the camshafts in our car engines? They are quiet, manufacturing experience is plentyful, easy to manufacture, and it would have a degree of novelty you would badly need to sell any.
I always wondered why nobody used that. Probably some caveat I do not see.
A toothed belt like those driving the camshafts in our car engines? They are quiet, manufacturing experience is plentyful, easy to manufacture, and it would have a degree of novelty you would badly need to sell any.
I always wondered why nobody used that. Probably some caveat I do not see.
To the best of my knowledge, by far the best electric motor is a Hall generator motor, because, if memory serves, it has the most uniform magnetic field for the rotor of any and all.
But I suspect that would imply direct drive, control electronics and I suspect Hall generator motors are not cheap. Perhaps you could consider a belt drive using a Hall generator motor. I imagine that would be a first and it might give Linn a permanent headache.
I started work on a Hall effect synchronous motor along the lines of the old Pabst motor. The real challenge is to get a hall effect motor with linear Hall sensors. The vendor went out of business before we could get the project started. Normally the sensors act as switches with abrupt changes when the level gets strong enough. However linear Hall sensors and suitable linear amplifiers with a suitable gain control could make for a very smooth drive. This may be what the Denon AC direct drive was, I never could get details. otherwise a two phase ac drive to a Pabst motor may be as close to ideal as you can get. This is what I wound up doing for the Rockport turntable. The last version that he did with someone else went to an unbelievably expensive direct drive air bearing motor solution.
Are there any measurements that correlate with the strong assertions about the differences in sound between the different drive systems?
Only if you caere to look over the old documents, Demian. Look for old DIN "A" and "B" noise and rumble measurements.
You will notice that idler wheel models rarely made it over -63 dB DIN B. By comparison, modern at the time DD models commonly made over -72 dB, and with better models, this went to -75 and even -78 dB DIN B. My own model CS 604 was rated at -75 dB DIN B, and its succesor model 606 actually did make those measurements.
Not that it was mandatory. In a test I saw, Fisher MT 6330, while costin about 10%, actually never got past -62 dB DIN B, and that was also a DD unit. The point is, the simple fact that it was a DD drive only opened the door to better rumble figures, but did not guarantee it by default.
Sony did well at -74 dB, and Thorens settled aboit -73 dB DIN B, not bad for a belt drive.
See for yourself, if you like, the text is ni German, but the measurements are Germanically pedantic:
http://dual.pytalhost.eu/1986/03.jpg
One of four pages with results.
You will notice that idler wheel models rarely made it over -63 dB DIN B. By comparison, modern at the time DD models commonly made over -72 dB, and with better models, this went to -75 and even -78 dB DIN B. My own model CS 604 was rated at -75 dB DIN B, and its succesor model 606 actually did make those measurements.
Not that it was mandatory. In a test I saw, Fisher MT 6330, while costin about 10%, actually never got past -62 dB DIN B, and that was also a DD unit. The point is, the simple fact that it was a DD drive only opened the door to better rumble figures, but did not guarantee it by default.
Sony did well at -74 dB, and Thorens settled aboit -73 dB DIN B, not bad for a belt drive.
See for yourself, if you like, the text is ni German, but the measurements are Germanically pedantic:
http://dual.pytalhost.eu/1986/03.jpg
One of four pages with results.
A nice plan, no question, but I very much doubt their sales projections, especially now that they are no longer dirt cheap. Unless there's a new mania in the Czech Republic and a few neighboring countries.
If it comes true, we may yet see a revival of Dual, Perpetuum Ebner (which Dual almost put out of business, but which owns Dual now), Lenco, etc.
I'd like that.
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