Snake oil or not?

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So, for starters, I'm someone who generally can't hear the difference between interconnects and speaker cables, much less power cords. I do realize that there may be specific gear for which I might notice a difference, but so far I'm a skeptic.

But here's the rub. My wife and I are sipping some red wine...a Cab Franc from France...and we've been hearing about the difference wine glasses can make in the taste of a wine. With my skeptical nature, I've been reluctant to even bother with a taste test as it seems like snake oil. I have tried the test, though, on a few occasions and haven't noticed any difference.

But tonight, we tried it with this cab franc. I'm using a typical Bordeaux glass (crystal, on the left in the photo), my wife is using a basic white wine made of low grade glass. The Cab Franc grape is used in the Bordeaux region for wines that can fetch upwards of $600 per bottle, though it's used in small quantities.

DSCN0657-2 - My Photo Gallery

So I figured the Bordeaux glass would be the best choice for this wine. In short, the Chinon tastes quite different in the two glasses. Oddly, it's much better in the plain glass.

Oh, and this was done with our first sips, so fuzzy-headedness isn't a factor.

All this has led me to think that different people are more or less sensitive to different stimuli, and thus some people may perceive a difference where others don't. I may not be able to hear a difference between a $25 RCA cable vs a $1000 cable, but I sure can taste the difference between these two wine glasses with this particular wine.

Go figure.
 
For cables -- speaker cables included -- I find that it's the RLC parameters that matter. The better cables come from manufacturers that specify these cables. The cable forms a voltage divider with the speaker impedance. It's fairly easy to show that different cables have different frequency characteristics. But 99.99 % of cable designs seem to be based on snake oil and deep pockets of the people buying them.

It looks like the regular wine glass on the right will allow the wine to breathe better - i.e. oxidize faster. Depending on how you treated the wine before you poured it, that could explain some of the difference.

~Tom
 
Some of the wine glass stuff IS snake oil- the idea propagated by Riedl about controlling the flow of the wine over certain regions of the tongue is dubious. But the aromatics ARE certainly different from glass to glass, and there's actually sensory data on that. It's not mysterious, it has to do with wine surface area and how closed in the opening is compared to the width of the bowl.

That said, there's not much consistency, IME, from taster to taster on glass shape preferences- we all can agree that they're different, but (for example), many feel that the Vinum Burgundy is better for Cote-Rotie than the Vinum Syrah, while others prefer the Sommelier Bordeaux.
 
Until you do these tests 'double blind' you cannot possibly say that it isn't just simple psychology that accounts for these differences.

I would bet a large amount of money that almost all perceived differences between cables and wine glasses are psychological. You perceive what you expect to perceive - I have experienced this myself on numerous occasions - or from day to day your mood changes or your ears recover from listening fatigue etc.

I am currently experiencing disappointment in my perception of a particular sound source, but I am fully prepared to accept that it may be psychological if only I can devise the experiment to show it.
 
Yep, the wine didn't breath at all before pouring, so the more open cheapo wine glass may have allowed the wine to open more than the Bordeaux glass. As for the Reidl claim of directing the wine to different parts of the tongue, it's certainly plausible (though I do remain skeptical of that claim), and I do find dramatic differences with taste of a variety of foods depending on how I hold my tongue... And there is the smell factor. If I hold my nose, I don't taste. Open it and I get all manner of subtlety, particularly with wine. Still, I was surprised by the magnitude of the difference.

As for the idea of psychological effects, my expectation was that the Bordeaux glass would be the better IF there was any difference at all, which I didn't expect. So no, it wasn't double-blind (not even blind for that matter), and I wouldn't bet my house on it, but given that all of the results were different from what I expected, it is intriguing to me to say the least.

It may even open my eyes to the possibility of differences among cables.
:drink:
 
As for the idea of psychological effects, my expectation was that the Bordeaux glass would be the better IF there was any difference at all, which I didn't expect. So no, it wasn't double-blind (not even blind for that matter), and I wouldn't bet my house on it, but given that all of the results were different from what I expected, it is intriguing to me to say the least.

OK, it's maybe not just what you expect, but also what you (deep down) would like to be true!
 
Not that I should intrude, got some lovely Czech, Irish, Baccarat, Christoffle and American glass at this end...I can say without hesitation that a VO Manhattan, or a Martini with any decent gin is just magnificent when served straight-up in a high quality glass.

Forgot -- also got some nice glass in Gdansk in 2007.
 
In my college days I certianly experienced that Southern Comfort only tastes good when drinking it straight from the bottle. So in this extreme case, how it hits the tounge (mainly NOT hitting it) makes a difference. (Lack of olfactory influence probably contributed heavily as well.)
 
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I know in lead crystal--the alcohol leaches out the lead...

Since wine gives me a headache after a glass or two--never got around to trying in different glasses.

You should invite us all over to your house to taste your wine. We will gladly do repeated experiments with many glasses upended just to make sure. The experiment might end up with the biggest glass giving the best taste--so take that into consideration.
 
I know in lead crystal--the alcohol leaches out the lead...

A more polar solvent like vinegar will leach out quite a bit of lead. Alcohol will as well, but lesser quantities over time. I think that there was an NIH study done on this a few years back. The problem is about 1,000 times worse for earthenware which contains leaded white pigment (lead oxide), and it depends upon how the container was fired. So I would say you shouldn't drink wine in your Meissen teacups.

Parenthetically, the EPA and Consumer Affairs are reconsidering their draconian rules for lead content in children's toys (with the usual accompaniment of donkey braying). Legacy books will be exempted, so will things like bicycles.
 
You need to remember that blind testing shows that wine lovers (including experts) base their 'taste' descriptions mainly on the colour of the wine. All this stuff about "a hint of blackberry" is based on colour. I recently saw a test on TV which showed that most ordinary people can't even tell red from white when they cant see the wine!!

Doubtless wine 'experts' will object to double-blind testing, on the grounds that the stress of it would blunt their fine perceptions. (and the outcome of it will blunt their reputation and future earnings?)
 
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You need to remember that blind testing shows that wine lovers (including experts) base their 'taste' descriptions mainly on the colour of the wine. All this stuff about "a hint of blackberry" is based on colour. I recently saw a test on TV which showed that most ordinary people can't even tell red from white when they cant see the wine!!

Doubtless wine 'experts' will object to double-blind testing, on the grounds that the stress of it would blunt their fine perceptions. (and the outcome of it will blunt their reputation and future earnings?)

I don't find any of this hard to believe. :D I frequently (not always) fail my wife's blind wine taste test - rarely identifying the wine correctly unless it is one of a few varietals I drink rather regularly. Sometimes I know what it isn't, but not what it is.. Pretty amusing if a bit embarrassing actually.. :eek: Not sure she would do any better if the tables were turned.. :D
 
You need to remember that blind testing shows that wine lovers (including experts) base their 'taste' descriptions mainly on the colour of the wine. All this stuff about "a hint of blackberry" is based on colour. I recently saw a test on TV which showed that most ordinary people can't even tell red from white when they cant see the wine!!

Was that TV test a peer-reviewed double-blind test? I'd be interested to know more (though don't have a TV). While there are subtle aspects of wine that are difficult for most people to detect (some that I admit I don't detect), there are other tastes that are obvious! If there weren't, there'd be no reason to buy one wine over another (never mind any cost difference). I had a wine recently where the vanilla flavor was blatent, something I'd never tasted in a wine. No one mentioned that flavor to predispose us to it, yet it was obvious to everyone present. And then there are the differences between most reds and whites (notwithstanding the test you mention).

I don't expect you to believe me, though.

My point in this thread, and the reason for my responding now, however, is that while SOME people obviously won't be able to tell the differences among wines (or audio cables) - indeed, it may be that MOST people can't tell the differences - no doubt some are sensitive to the differences and CAN tell.

And that alone might explain some of the double-blind test results for a variety of things. If the test subjects are randomly chosen then I'd expect there to NOT be much ability to discern differences among wines or cables (or other things), and that would lead a researcher to say that statistically speaking, people in general can't discern the difference. But that doesn't mean NO ONE can tell the difference.

That was my mini epiphany. That while I may not be able to tell the difference between cables or power cords (at least thus far), I may just not be sensitive to those differences. But I AM, apparently (and surprisingly to me), sensitive to at least one red wine in two different glasses.

And I AM sensitive to the differences between single-ended and push-pull amplifiers...and single-malt vs blended whiskies. :cheers:
 
Doubtless wine 'experts' will object to double-blind testing, on the grounds that the stress of it would blunt their fine perceptions.

Quite the opposite. Blind testing is standard in the industry- besides the use of DBTs in day to day evaluations for quality and development purposes at most wineries (designing and running these tests was a good part of my job for over ten years), anyone wanting a certification (e.g., Master Sommelier, Master of Wine...) has to pass several DBTs. Judges at wine competitions are likewise tested for sensitivity using DBT methods. Interestingly, depending on the type of evaluation, one often uses black glasses to disguise the color of the wine.

In her interesting book "Emperor of Wine," Elin McCoy has a humorous account of a blind tasting that I was part of, set up by a famous wine writer to try to humiliate one of his critics. My cooking/drinking partner (a fireman by profession) correctly identified the country of origin of 24 out of 27 of the wines, and named four of them directly ("1991 Cote-Rotie, Marcel Guigal, La Landonne vineyard").

This is why I just roll my eyes when people who claim to hear all sorts of marvelous things can do nothing but make excuses when it's time to demonstrate these refined perceptions.
 
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