Moderation and members no longer around

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Hi Bob,
Agreed, especially about harmonics being low order as a component of good performance. Low feedback design types of amplifiers do tend to measure higher THD, even higher than 0.05% at 1 KHz.

Hi wahab,
i was about to publish these designs in this site, but it happens that
a after recent event about a member that did great technical contributions
and was banned from here, i realized that DIY is not exactly what i thought
it was supposed to be.
Now that is really too bad, everyone's loss. Not the least because no one has ever been banned for detailing a project or having a differing viewpoint. I would encourage you to start a thread about your interesting project. It sounds like you had fun on top of having every right to be happy with what you created.

To tell you the honest truth, no member has ever been banned until all other attempts at communication have failed. In fact, a ban only ever will occur after a large amount of trouble with that member, and they go out of their way to ensure that they break the most serious rules on purpose. Also, no serious action against any member has ever taken place without the majority of moderators in agreement. Some times, they all agree. Anyone who says different are not dealing with the facts, not even close.

If you have concerns, why not ask a moderator, or the entire moderating team? We can not get into specifics as they are confidential, but what you have heard could be confirmed or denied for the most part. One truth I can give you is that 99% of the time, banning a member is not something that we want to have happen. In every single case, it has been to protect the membership from bullies, Trolls or similar unpleasant things. That is the entire reason why there is a moderation period, but some people change for various reasons. I will also add that there are a few members who are no longer here that I feel would be a strong benefit to the membership. These are people I am friendly towards and have zero personal issues with.

I feel strongly that the comment you put forth had to be answered, rather than be allowed to propagate further when there are factual errors. More so since you felt it proper to make a statement that you are withholding participation based on a situation that simply is not true. Of course, I am available to comment further should you wish. My email button is there for all to see.

Best, Chris

This is a collection of posts from this thread.
 
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Hi wahab,

Now that is really too bad, everyone's loss. Not the least because no one has ever been banned for detailing a project or having a differing viewpoint. I would encourage you to start a thread about your interesting project. It sounds like you had fun on top of having every right to be happy with what you created.

I will also add that there are a few members who are no longer here that I feel would be a strong benefit to the membership. These are people I am friendly towards and have zero personal issues with.

I feel strongly that the comment you put forth had to be answered, rather than be allowed to propagate further when there are factual errors. More so since you felt it proper to make a statement that you are withholding participation based on a situation that simply is not true. Of course, I am available to comment further should you wish. My email button is there for all to see.

Best, Chris

hi chris,

fact is that the solid state forum has lost a few prominent members,
wether they were banned or are now unwilling to participate to the debate, or only occasionnaly....
time will tell us, but this section of the site has already lost a lot
of his interest..

all da best,

wahab
 
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You sound like Greg Ball

Hi wahab,
This is not the proper place for discussions involving energy efficiency. Not only that, but your concerns do not amount to very much in reality.

One has to ask. Why do you post here, and yet expect other members to assist you? Of course the slap in the face is your refusal to contribute while citing a very flimsy reason.

All take and no give perhaps? Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

As for members who are no longer with us, I do communicate with some still. These people have various reasons for their decisions, and at least they are honest about those reasons (well, I know a couple who are not honest about what occurred). That entire argument should have been cleared up by yourself personally, rather than carried on and leveraged as a reason for not contributing to others. You didn't have to mention this, but you made a case of it. In fact, you have actually come into this thread late and are in a sense, "thread jacking" to some extent. You could have started you own thread.

Now you are using this thread as a platform for an ecological message. You wouldn't happen to know Greg Ball, would you? You are beginning to really sound similar in some ways.

Want to talk about wasted energy? transportation of goods by ship from Asia to the rest of the world, the costs of shipping are being held down it seems. This wastes far more energy than what you are talking about. Grid lock and congestion on the roads - those figures would blow your mind. The argument you are attempting to make on amplifier topology is such an incredibly tiny slice of energy use as to be laughable. Remember too, most people in this world who have audio systems are using very low powered system-in-a-box type thing. The power you deliver to a speaker load exceeds the entire draw these systems represent.

Why not become relevant and worry about things that really matter?

-Chris
 
Hi wahab,
This is not the proper place for discussions involving energy efficiency. Not only that, but your concerns do not amount to very much in reality.

One has to ask. Why do you post here, and yet expect other members to assist you? Of course the slap in the face is your refusal to contribute while citing a very flimsy reason.

All take and no give perhaps? Leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

In fact, you have actually come into this thread late and are in a sense, "thread jacking" to some extent. You could have started you own thread.

Now you are using this thread as a platform for an ecological message. You wouldn't happen to know Greg Ball, would you? You are beginning to really sound similar in some ways.
The argument you are attempting to make on amplifier topology is such an incredibly tiny slice of energy use as to be laughable. Remember too, most people in this world who have audio systems are using very low powered system-in-a-box type thing. The power you deliver to a speaker load exceeds the entire draw these systems represent.

Why not become relevant and worry about things that really matter?

-Chris

thread jacking?..
isn t it somewhat exagerated.?...
you will notice that i re made some measurements of the
topologies that were compared at the start of this thread..
the debate about energy efficency is part of amps topologies,
in a way, a few posts about it will not hurt..
are that untolerant, chris ?...

whab
 
Wahab,

There is considerable sensitivity about difficult, past contributing members in all forums. Moderators do not take banishment lightly. Because you are so clever, you were never on the receiving end from some of these guys, but many did, participation suffered, and while the technical highpoints may be slightly diminished, there is no longer a tiresome scoring of points.

No matter what you think of people's abilities, there can be no place for brazen insult, and when you question the mods on this you can expect sharp disagreement.

Perhaps you might now be invited to join the new 'invitation only' forum?


Hugh
 
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Hello wahab,
I am sensitive when it comes to a member who disrespects the rest of the members here. In my view, you did that when you decided to tell everyone that you didn't feel like sharing your work over a rather questionable assumption. When I pressed you a little on that, you remained fixed. So I have to wonder, are you only looking to take from these people, or will you consider giving back as well?

To point out what I see here, you were the one who brought up the issue of telling everyone that you have a project, but are unwilling to share it. The only conclusion I can see here is that they are not worthy in your eyes.

The one thing I have no patience for is a member who punishes the general membership. You have and are unrepentant. You honestly don't see where what you have said puts down the members and all those people who make this place possible. If you honestly feel that way, why are you here?

Anyway, enough. Your posts speak volumes. I don't think you have even attempted to confirm what I have told you with any other moderator. ALl you have to do is ask.

-Chris :rolleyes:
 
at the risk of repeating myself, same answer, check my posts to
know if i m the kind of one always asking for help or trying to give
some clues when i ve got an idea about what is discussed..
don t inflate what i m writing, wouldn it be better to take all
that is said with some ponderation?..
after all, giving an opinion is in no way harmful..
one s opinion only engage his author and everybody has rights
to express opinions...
because we aren t agree on a matter doesn t mean that we can t
agree on all the remaining issues, so please, don t make general
statements as is the case in your late post..
 
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Hi wahab,
Well, I'm just commenting on what I can see in your posts.

Why not consider the comment that you made earlier in post #380. Try to see it from another perspective and see what one might conclude.

This is the passage in question ...
i was about to publish these designs in this site, but it happens that
a after recent event about a member that did great technical contributions
and was banned from here, i realized that DIY is not exactly what i thought
it was supposed to be..this is to say the least...
so i ll refrain publishing more designs (i published only one, very simple by the way)
as long as the situation will appear to me as troubling...
I don't know, what do you read in this?

Anyone else have an opinion or comment?

On kind of the same topic, I had recently been corresponding with a recently departed member. He took a look in on this thread and sent me an entirely uncalled for, nasty email, simply because I think he misread a post. No doubt someone set up the background for the misinterpretation. Unfortunately, I have no way to clear this up with him, or even ask for clarification over what I can only guess at. He has apparently blocked my email address, and I hadn't even replied to him. In particular, he referred to an earlier post I made at #383. In fact, I had made a specific referral about this person in that post, copied here ...
I will also add that there are a few members who are no longer here that I feel would be a strong benefit to the membership. These are people I am friendly towards and have zero personal issues with.
When the issues occurred surrounding him, I wasn't even posting, and was unaware that he had been banned. I have been accused of not doing anything and perhaps even talking out both sides of my mouth here.

I do suspect that there are people here who might know who I am talking about, in fact I am sure of it. I have no way to contact this individual, and that's too bad since we had always had a rapport in the past. What is especially sad is what I'm sure is a misunderstanding, and the over-reaction it has appeared to have caused. I have always been solidly in his corner, and still am.

I guess this is an excellent example of a situation so easily blown far out of proportion through misunderstandings. Normally, if people keep talking, these can be resolved and recognized for what they are.

In the end, I am very saddened that this has happened. Unhappy that no normal comments or questions were made. The excessive anger does have me completely baffled. No, I'm not worried about joining his forum. It would have been nice, but not something that was needed. In the end, a needless loss.

If this is similar to any emails sent to other moderators by this person, I can fully see why he was banned. No, I had no idea of the details since I was not in attendance. There would have been no choice - and this was intentional on his part. In the end, it's all so unnecessary and dramatic.

Well people, there you go. A misunderstanding and a hot temper combined to create drama on the internet. Maybe we all need to sit back and reconsider a post before we respond - and certainly before taking any drastic action. Depending on what you wish to accomplish - of course.

Wahab, it doesn't matter at all whether you post your successes here or not. It's only an expected aspect of participating in a group of people with similar interests. You want to keep things to yourself - fine. Just refrain from making a comment to advance a statement. Personally, if you do not wish to participate, I can't understand why you are here. To each his own I guess.

To everyone,
People have left this site for various reasons. Often they work hard to have themselves "banned", I guess being a martyr is in style. When these people are hot heads, they are not missed. However, when they are known as helpful members and they get it into their head that a grand statement must be made, they generally use the internet equivalent of "suicide by cop". They force our hand, and understand that this (a ban) is never done with joy or happiness. It is an unpleasant business for the moderating team, and I'm very happy I was not involved personally with the one I'm concerned about. It would have been hard on everyone who had to consider the move.

I think this is what I am trying to convey to you all. The moderating team does not rejoice in taking action against any member, except the very few that will be obvious to everyone. Being a moderator does include these things that can be depressing after a while, it ain't fun people.

This is my way of responding to the idea that some people have that moderators like to "throw their weight around". It's simply not true. Every single time a action is to be considered, we are not enjoying the site. It's work, and it's more like the job no one wants to do. People are not banned for fun, no one goes to the SinBin because anyone is getting their jollies. It's work and this does detract from the enjoyment we once got from this site as normal members.

I am sad that there are people who think this is a game. It takes a toll on us which builds over time. And yes, I am very sad about the email I received. So completely misguided and wasteful of emotional energy.

If anyone has any thoughts or comments, they can email me directly, or even begin a thread to deal with it. I only posted here since this seemed to be the location of the problem. bhome at sympatico dot ca

-Chris
 
Hi wahab,

To everyone,
People have left this site for various reasons. Often they work hard to have themselves "banned", I guess being a martyr is in style. When these people are hot heads, they are not missed. However, when they are known as helpful members and they get it into their head that a grand statement must be made, they generally use the internet equivalent of "suicide by cop". They force our hand, and understand that this (a ban) is never done with joy or happiness. It is an unpleasant business for the moderating team, and I'm very happy I was not involved personally with the one I'm concerned about. It would have been hard on everyone who had to consider the move.

I think this is what I am trying to convey to you all. The moderating team does not rejoice in taking action against any member, except the very few that will be obvious to everyone. Being a moderator does include these things that can be depressing after a while, it ain't fun people.

This is my way of responding to the idea that some people have that moderators like to "throw their weight around". It's simply not true. Every single time a action is to be considered, we are not enjoying the site. It's work, and it's more like the job no one wants to do. People are not banned for fun, no one goes to the SinBin because anyone is getting their jollies. It's work and this does detract from the enjoyment we once got from this site as normal members.

I am sad that there are people who think this is a game. It takes a toll on us which builds over time. And yes, I am very sad about the email I received. So completely misguided and wasteful of emotional energy.

If anyone has any thoughts or comments, they can email me directly, or even begin a thread to deal with it. I only posted here since this seemed to be the location of the problem. bhome at sympatico dot ca

-Chris

Hello Chris,

I'd like to know how many of the people who have vested commercial interests and who sponsor this forum have been banned verses the people who don't sponsor this forum ??

How can there be any objectivity in a public forum when certain members have vested commercial interests in it ?

Banning people is a form of censorship. I think a public forum such as this is immediately compromised when certain members pay for privileges which the rest of us don't have. Until this inequality is stopped there will continue to be an exodus of valuable posters who have something of value to offer and who are passionate about what they contribute.

regards
Trev
 
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Hi Trevor,
Now there is an old refrain!

From my point of view? I can only speak of what I have direct knowledge of.

I'd like to know how many of the people who have vested commercial interests and who sponsor this forum have been banned verses the people who don't sponsor this forum ??
I really wish I knew. I do know that at least one moderator isn't any more, due to this issue. I don't know whether anything was out of kilter or not, but sometimes the impression is enough.

Think about this a bit though. If you have a commercial interest, doesn't it follow that you are a business person? Now, if you are a (good) business person, you understand that acting professionally is a prime requirement. Knowing this, and remembering that everything you post is a matter of public record, aren't you going to treat your posts as if they were business communications? You don't want anything to come back and bite you - right? Not only that, but if you are supporting a web site financially, wouldn't it be really stupid to act so badly that you get yourself banned?

This, I know about. I ran a business successfully for 16 years, then sold it. I find that I have to reduce my expectations and posting standards in mixed forums far lower than in a private forum that is not open to the public.

My point? The very fact that a business person is here at all sort of preselects the behavior you should see from them. The same should apply to an industry personality, and in fact we do see this in people like Nelson Pass (sorry Nelson for singling you out). Scott Wurcer is another, look at his style. Ever talk with Walt Jung? Jan Didden? There are more. This is what I am talking about. These people know how to represent themselves, as opposed to some that have been banned. Most people who are banned are so because of the way they treat others, then there are the rules we have. They are there to try and maintain a positive environment for all members to post in. Read them again and think. Aren't they really there to maintain what could be called a polite society? That's my take on it, yours may differ - or not.

How can there be any objectivity in a public forum when certain members have vested commercial interests in it ?
Now that is a constant headache we all face. The difference is that the moderating team has to deal with it. There are things that go on behind the scenes all the time. Communication with the member who is really being a problem with this takes time - but things are happening that you don't see. There are times when another member is a bigger problem and takes up a lot of our time as well. We can't be everywhere, all the time.

Banning people is a form of censorship.
No it isn't! There we disagree completely!

People are not banned because we don't care for what they say. People are banned for the reasons laid out in the forum rules. Anyone who says they were banned for reasons other than those are mistaken. Also, normally we take great efforts to correct a situation before we take the step of banning someone. That is unless they go way over the top, with the knowledge of what they are doing. Remember, "suicide by cop". Understand too that a member may be banned for the contents of an email directed at a moderator or forum staff (the guys who own this place and pay for the servers, software and hosting). Threats will do it almost every time, so will a repeated rant or swearing. There is no place in this world for people who cannot behave within reason. That's stuff you learn in kindergarten.

I think a public forum such as this is immediately compromised when certain members pay for privileges which the rest of us don't have. Until this inequality is stopped there will continue to be an exodus of valuable posters who have something of value to offer and who are passionate about what they contribute.
Anyone can pay or donate some. Do you have any idea what privileges they receive? I do. They get a title and a "star". Period. So there is no "privileged class" that has been bought - unless you want to count the owner. He bought the entire thing.

I will agree there are some problems, but these issues are not systemic and we are doing our best to solve them as we can. These issues have nothing to do with who paid what, who's selling what or anything else. The issues are more the members who feel entitled. They usually freak once they understand that they are only important within a context - not the gods they want to be seen as.

We also have members who have contributed a lot over the years. They may become unhappy with something and become resentful an perhaps hurt. Those are the people who we hate to lose, but we can't stop them. If that member decides to force a ban, there is no choice but to oblige them. After all, it is a public forum and we can't treat them better than anyone else. Here is where the same argument is being argued from both sides Trevor. How much more special are these people than you or I? Isn't that the very question you are concerned about? It's a heck of a tight line I have to admit. We do (and did) treat these people specially. We went out of our way to try and resolve any issues before we banned them. The latest member to go I think was andy_c. I wasn't around to see the mess, but an attempt was made and he did make the final move that forced action. I know nothing more, other than what he and I talked about off-line, after the fact. That, I am not willing to reveal in any detail.

I have personally tried to intervene to calm things down with some other members who left, and I can tell you how hard we try to work things out when possible. BTW, it takes a lot of time and effort to do this. Sometimes people are unhappy and there is nothing that is acceptable to them. What can you do? They set the tone and conditions, we simply try to make things work within reason.

So, the old complaints about preferred access and privileges will never go away. An old tiresome complaint because there is no way to disprove a conspiracy theory. Believe me, life just isn't that eventful here, it's mostly people getting out of line in the forums. It makes for a good story - and that's the problem. It's only a story.

Now, who doesn't believe me? There is an easy way to find out the truth.

Donate and see what happens. I can promise you that you might feel good about it, but it will not open any doors for you here, sorry.

-Chris
 
I don't wish to become involved with any specific people issues referred to directly or indirectly above, but since this is a public forum I'd like to add my 2c.

I would like to add a balancing comment, a comment of thanks and appreciation to those who do moderate this forum. I have found it to be a very helpful place, I have learned a great deal from the membership and it has been a big part of my enjoyment of learning about DIY audio. I find that the vast majority of members here are very polite and helpful contributors. I have no doubt that the moderators are partly responsible for the constructive environment that exists and rarely if ever receive credit for their work. You can't please everyone all the time, but from what I have seen over the past year this forum comes close.
 
Anyone else have an opinion or comment?
Hi Chris

I think it would be nice if all the stuff in the last few pages about member's attitudes and expectations, personal relationships, moderation, banned members, commercial interests etc could be split out into a separate thread - perhaps under "everything else"?

As a mod, perhaps you could do the necessary?
Sorry to make extra work, but you did contribute a fair share of the OT yourself.:D

Regards - Godfrey
 
Another :2c: to add to the OT...

I think the Sin Bin thread is very valuable, but sadly under-used.

When Andy_c was banned, there was a huge amount of protest, anger, accusations and other nastiness that only subsided when the mods and editor gave a little background and explained the reasons for the banning.

I'm sure that if an explanation of the reasons had been posted earlier in the Sin Bin thread, most of that unpleasantness could have been avoided. Ultimately there would have been a lot less work for the mods.

More recently Borat was binned then banned, but there is no mention of this in the Sin Bin thread. While I doubt anyone will be too upset about the banning, a simple "Borat has been banned for sock-puppeting" in the Sin Bin thread would be nice (and would avoid all the "Hey, what happened to Borat?" questions popping up in various threads).

Cheers - Godfrey

p.s. Agree with Bigun's comments above :up:
There's often too much "I demand..." and "I resent..." and not enough "I appreciate..."
 
Think about this a bit though. If you have a commercial interest, doesn't it follow that you are a business person? Now, if you are a (good) business person, you understand that acting professionally is a prime requirement. Knowing this, and remembering that everything you post is a matter of public record, aren't you going to treat your posts as if they were business communications? You don't want anything to come back and bite you - right? Not only that, but if you are supporting a web site financially, wouldn't it be really stupid to act so badly that you get yourself banned?

That may be the theory. However I've got nothing against people with commercial interests posting on this forum so long as there is no conflict of interests with the forum itself. But once sponsors have access to the forum then this presents a gray area, so much so that how do we know that their opinions and defense of such is not influenced by their own commercial self interests ?? How do we know that when they go complaining to the moderators about another poster they aren't really trying to defend their own self interests rather than the interests of the forum as a whole ??

To maintain complete objectivity I don't believe major commercial sponsors should be posting on this forum. They should make up their minds as to whether they want to be a participant on an objective forum with equal rights to all other members or do they want to an be an advertiser selling their wares. IMHO I don't believe you can wear two hats and maintain an objective forum.

regards
trev
 
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Hi Trevor,
Everyone here has some interest behind their posts. Manufacturers presumably post in accordance with what they believe to be true. If they do not, there are plenty of knowledgeable members around to point out these problems. I've done this over the years, even before I became a moderator.

We do have reported complaints about every real or imagined problem you can think of. However, no one responds blindly. If there is any question about validity, the moderators talk about it first. Many complaints get ignored as well, our own private noise that we have to read. Remember something else as well, often there are two sides to a story, and both members may be in the wrong. Many times a moderator mediates the problem, or at least will communicate with one or more members involved. You have to see how many reports we get in a day to believe it. If every report was actionable, we would have to hire staff and extra moderators just to deal with the mechanics!

To maintain complete objectivity I don't believe major commercial sponsors should be posting on this forum.
I really must disagree with you on this.
Firstly, what you are suggesting is unfair, plus you are censoring these people simply because of commercial success. Why? Their viewpoints are often of high value and represent the real world. Some began as hobbyists and became successful too.

So let's show a couple situations, you tell me what you think.

1. Nelson Pass.
The man has contributed so much valuable information and guidance here, I can't imagine things without him. He does support this site, and also gives some parts away at the Burning Amp show. Here you get a chance to meet and speak with a successful person who enjoys his work. I hold him (and many others) in the highest regard and am deeply grateful for the amount of effort he expends here. I have to find another example! I use Nelson as a positive example more than anyone else.

Should we muzzle Nelson Pass?

2. Me, Chris Bridge.
I don't know. I do my best to help people out and as a moderator. I am not objective by any means if you look at my professional past and as my involvement as a moderator. In fact, simply by being a moderator there are people who write me off as having a viewpoint aligned with this site. I did run a business for a period of 16 years. It was an audio and recording studio service company supporting many manufacturers. We did business internationally as well. I can't help but look at things differently than you do.

Should I be allowed to post?

Consider too, all those members who may work for an audio company or electronic component supplier. How about them?

How about all the members who used to run their own business?

I think the determination can only be made on the record of a person's posts, and that is what we look at when the question comes up. I really don't know how to approach this in a manner that is more in our members best interests.

I know it's possible to remain objective while wearing two hats. The moderating team does this every single time we post. Anyone who represents a company will also do the same unless they want to lose market share. Honesty is far easier than attempting to hide the truth and remember what the story is.

-Chris
 
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Hi Godfrey,
This has been said many times, and I guess will many times again.

Dealing with a problem involving a member, or some members, is never an easy thing to do. There is a great deal of work that goes on out of view. Most times, the communications are personal and private. Anyone who sends email to a moderator does have the expectation and right of privacy, and they do. Unless a member requests that we make an announcement, we do not divulge any details at all. Of course, there is an expectation that all communication via email is private and we will delete anything posted that is copied from an email without the permission of the author. It's actually considered a very serious offense to post things like that. At the very least it is in extremely poor taste to do so (by our rules anyway).

What this does in a practical sense is hide most of what goes on from the view of the public. Make no mistake, posts are public here. One thing is for sure though, well a couple things actually. We normally do not want anyone to be banned, it's work and not real fun to begin with, and no one moderator has the authority to do this. A group decision - more work. To ban a member is always the very last option we use. We try everything to settle the issue(s) first. This is a great deal of time and work on our part, so no one is ever surprised they are banned. It doesn't come out of the blue, or at least unless the member is in denial. It has happened that a member takes matter into their own hands and forces our hand. They do something for which there is no other option but to ban them. I refer to this as "suicide by cop", as you have seen. Normally, they do this to create the most amount of noise, and possibly sympathy. It can be effective since the moderating team will not release details (privacy), but an ex-member may not honor that code. I have seen a few completely misrepresent the facts surrounding their departure or conversations with us - knowing we will not release the exact details. That pretty much ensures that stories of how they were unfairly persecuted will circulate.

There is no fix and you can't expect absolute truth from everyone.

One more thing. Each moderator is subject to peer review. We can't get away with anything such as abuse. The other people keep us honest, and that includes the forum owner and mechanic as well. Stories such as plots hatched by moderators will always be claimed, but the way the place is set up really does prevent such things. Believe it or not, that is the honest truth.

-Chris
 
Really, the only issue I can see, is that sponsors with sponsored forums, have moderating rights.
That is just plain wrong, and has already been abused by at least one person.
That a vendor is allowed to moderate anything negative regarding his products, simply makes the credibility of the forum a whole lot lower.
This should be a place for finding honest answers and information, not advertisement disguised as honest answers and information.

The rest of the whining, I find hard to believe.


Magura :)
 
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