John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II

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diyAudio Member RIP
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For those who dont know REG.... Robert E. Greene --- he has a PHD in mathematics. And is professor of mathematics at UCLA. Best known as the inventor of Wavelet theory.

[He recently retired.] He is a very astute listener and I would not assume he isnt familiar with DBLT and the math behind all the 1's and 0's theory of digital systems.

We've known each other a very long time. I will be talking to him about the subject. .... especially,jitter.


THx-RNMarsh
Although he does have this piece on his website advocating the application of wavelets to audio (a controversial POV btw) Beyond Frequency Response: A New Approach to Audio Measurement via Wavelets, his professional fields have been complex analysis and complex geometry, a very distinguished career as such. But I don't believe he works in wavelet theory much, let alone being the inventor.

From the wiki, as to the history of wavelets:

"The development of wavelets can be linked to several separate trains of thought, starting with Haar's work in the early 20th century. Later work by Dennis Gabor yielded Gabor atoms (1946), which are constructed similarly to wavelets, and applied to similar purposes. Notable contributions to wavelet theory can be attributed to Zweig’s discovery of the continuous wavelet transform in 1975 (originally called the cochlear transform and discovered while studying the reaction of the ear to sound),[6] Pierre Goupillaud, Grossmann and Morlet's formulation of what is now known as the CWT (1982), Jan-Olov Strömberg's early work on discrete wavelets (1983), Daubechies' orthogonal wavelets with compact support (1988), Mallat's multiresolution framework (1989), Akansu's Binomial QMF (1990), Nathalie Delprat's time-frequency interpretation of the CWT (1991), Newland's harmonic wavelet transform (1993) and many others since.

Timeline

First wavelet (Haar wavelet) by Alfréd Haar (1909)
Since the 1970s: George Zweig, Jean Morlet, Alex Grossmann
Since the 1980s: Yves Meyer, Stéphane Mallat, Ingrid Daubechies, Ronald Coifman, Ali Akansu, Victor Wickerhauser " [end of wiki excerpt]

Example of his specialization, a very-high-level book authored by Greene and two other maths guys:

The Geometry of Complex Domains (Progress in Mathematics) by Robert E. Greene, Kang-Tae Kim, Steven G. Krantz

From the Amazon page for the book:

"This work examines a rich tapestry of themes and concepts and provides a comprehensive treatment of an important area of mathematics, while simultaneously covering a broader area of the geometry of domains in complex space. At once authoritative and accessible, this text touches upon many important parts of modern mathematics: complex geometry, equivalent embeddings, Bergman and Kahler geometry, curvatures, differential invariants, boundary asymptotics of geometries, group actions, and moduli spaces.

The Geometry of Complex Domains can serve as a “coming of age” book for a graduate student who has completed at least one semester or more of complex analysis, and will be most welcomed by analysts and geometers engaged in current research."
 
Wow! That was a great dinner. Great Hungarian red. Followed by a swing through the main battle area of town with the convertible open and the stereo blasting. She liked it (and thus so did I).

Back to jitter. My DCX2496 started to throw out garbage at around 50nS pk-pk jitter; but as bcarso (iirc) noted that is probably the limit of the S/PDIF receiver rather than the DAC.

Jan

I wouldn't expect data jitter to affect the converter. We have been discussing data transfer. A bit lower level than I would expect to a 44.1k data transfer.

Does the unit buffer and reclock the data?

(We are not is disagreement over file transfer jitter should not travel. The open issue is if there might be something else going on.)
 
So what is the clock error in the dac that is causing jitter? Is jitter a discrete shift in frequency to one side or the other of the clock frequency or is it now a range that becomes wider as the quality of the clock goes down?

I would think that the frequency of the crystal oscillation would be high enough that it wouldn't ever cause timing errors, is this not the case?

Not all CD players use crystals. Some had cheaped out and used ceramic resonators. In large interconnected sound systems a master clock is often used and has a noticeable effect. But that is most likely a data stream issue.

Issues such as vibration and power supply swings may affect even crystal oscillators. Now as Chris has mentioned any oscillators work at much higher frequencies and are divided down to the data rate clock. This allows not just the ease to generate sequential timing signals but also does derease jitter a bit.

When I have built digital audio circuits it has been worthwhile to use low phase noise oscillators as they are a minuscule part of the cost.

Demian probably would have the best figures on actual requirements for production.
 
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really this ref isn't that hard to read - and quite blows away the cobwebs of the Green ref


This report is the end result of a PhD-level course intended to provide insight into challenges
and solutions in audio DAC systems design. It will review the concepts relevant to this
application and provide the reader with a system-level overview as well as insight into
fundamental principles and relations...
...This report will begin with an introduction to challenges surrounding jitter and jitter
suppression
...
 
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But he was the author of the quote I posted.

I know Robert..... when he writes to the lay audiophile public he over-simplifies things a weeee tiny bit. I also know from first hand experience that the non-technical TAS editors will change things they know nothing about to the point it can even say the opposite of what was intended.

But, he does know his subject well. So, I'll ask him about it. He is one of those rare persons (like M.Hawksford) who can talk/teach at many levels until you get it. See what he thinks.

I guess we should get back to JC's work/subject now......


THx-RNMarsh
 
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Disabled Account
Joined 2012
Although he does have this piece on his website advocating the application of wavelets to audio (a controversial POV btw) Beyond Frequency Response: A New Approach to Audio Measurement via Wavelets, his professional fields have been complex analysis and complex geometry, a very distinguished career as such. But I don't believe he works in wavelet theory much, let alone being the inventor.

there is an area of it or a branch of it or an application of it... that he, himself, told me he was the inventor and IT is used extensively now. Its just a point to make that he is very accomplished in mathematics and I can trust what he tells me regarding the math/theory questions I have. He also loves music/audio and does a lot of critical listening and evaluating.

THx-RNMarsh
 
diyAudio Member RIP
Joined 2005
there is an area of it or a branch of it or an application of it... that he, himself, told me he was the inventor and IT is used extensively now. Its just a point to make that he is very accomplished in mathematics and I can trust what he tells me regarding the math/theory questions I have. He also loves music/audio and does a lot of critical listening and evaluating.

THx-RNMarsh
I think you ought to ask him for clarification, and when you get it I'd like to hear it in his own words, regardless as to how technical. There is certainly no dispute that he is an outstanding mathematician.
 
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Over 20 years ago I ran into Robert Greene at a show and thanked him for a nice review of A DSP loudspeaker I designed. He had really good questions and while answering some I asked if I could use a little math or something like that. Afterwards he politely informs me of his day job.
 
USB Heads Up....

Re: jitter/noise/digital gremlins discussion.
USB Isolator - bscope_iso-288x216.jpg
Kit for the above USB isolator/external power injector board arrived last week and I put it together this morning.
For current experimenting I am using an Acer eee pc W7 netbook running Foobar, USB printer cable feeding a Roland UA-25ex outboard sound card, with balanced audio output signal feeding a pair of Behringer B2031 active loudspeakers.
I have a USB Type A to Type B adaptor as shown in the pic above, so the module connects effectively as an extension end to the existing printer cable.

A/B comparison of the USB isolator module in or out of circuit can be implemented in about 10 seconds....no need for DBLT to spot the subjective differences.

Dan.

circuitsathome.com/measurements/usb-isolator
 
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