I was counting 15cm for direct signal path+15cm for the feedback. Not so irrealistic ?
( I stay corrected for the 1ns ;-)
I started to think that you are the target market
I read some latest posts of Cal's thread. Eagertrader (post#192) could definitely hear the difference. If that is true, then it is an "effect box". There must be situation where the effect is negative, and there must be a situation where the effect is positive.
He used a line conditioner. I suggest to remove the line conditioner and check if the effect is positive. Then compare the price of a line conditioner and the device under test
None, at least the ones expected, not ?
Oh, you have/had some of them ? What is your conclusion ?
Esperado is not interested in PCB design. When he has a design to implement he gives it to the PCB designer.
It's not the problem (guess what is), it's the pre-requisite. I don't expect someone who knows only about RLC, become the one who has the final word.
I was not attacking anyone. I was attacking the false idea that there is controversy. To have controversy you need two or more sides each with evidence (and/or plausible explanations) for their view. You don't create a controversy by stating (without evidence) that something is true and then demanding that others disprove you. You don't create a controversy by stating (without evidence) that something is true and then protesting when others tell you it is known to be false.Jay said:
Until the audio phenomenon has been shown to exist, there is nothing to explain. I admit that I have no idea what might cause people to believe something which violates known circuit theory (e.g. silver wire sounds different from copper wire). I do have ideas about other issues, such as why poorly constructed but expensive cables wired between poorly designed but expensive equipment can sound different from good systems.
No. I assume I know some things. If I experienced the same phenomenon I would assume I was fooling myself.
Some people have an expectation that cables (etc.) should sound different; they take their perceived experience as supporting this. I have an expectation that all competent cables should sound the same; I take known theory as supporting this. Note that it is not my theory, but our theory.
I don't think I have ever accused someone of experiencing auditory hallucinations, but I suppose it is possible. I think expectation bias, combined with a weak grasp of circuit theory, is a more likely explanation. Also, poor equipment design. Anyway, you need to decide whether you seek explanations from me or not; you appear to complain when I don't offer an explanation and then complain when I do.
Sadly that is true. When they don't know enough physics (or any physics) they usually 'invent' some new physics. Sometimes they realise they are doing this, and sometimes they don't. In either case a physicist (and some chemists etc.) knows they are talking nonsense, so it would be better for them if they kept quiet and left us all to guess.
The delay is completely and utterly irrelevant to audio. Sorry, I have now been tautological. People who speak of this delay usually think it is much greater, or confuse the effect of a filter with true delay.Esperado said:
Real science is not quite as neat as that. However, I agree that measurement is needed - something which is markedly lacking from the 'true believers'. Explanations, when offered, are usually brushed aside - the 'believers' want to believe that they have discovered something new and esoteric, something hidden from conventional engineering.
As I have said before, it is the 'true believers' who act like the Flat Earth brigade. They believe their personal perceptions carry more weight than proper measurements: the earth looks flat to me so it must be flat.
No. I found a mistake in the way some of us here think: let some arbitrary one do the test, and then draw conclusion based on his result.
So, I expect someone who knows a lot to have the final word, whether case is closed, or still need further investigation.
That question is a pre-requisite because if you know the mechanism how that unwanted signal can get into the speaker then we can expect that you know how to prevent that very mechanism.
That is cetainly true as I have used some and still have some pulse transformers that are nanosec Tr. Not made by or used by HP/Agilant. A cheap-o Cd player is another thing.
What does AES et al say jitter must be less than to be inaudible?
THx-RNMarsh
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To move, flow or go smoothly or easily head over hill, upside down, sometimes resulting in a broken leg.
Jay,
Anyone who says that RF can't get into a speaker cable just hasn't experienced that. I have for years with not only my audio system but also things like phones and even my TV.
In my case I live directly line of sight within less than 100 yards from a major broadcast tower covered with all types of antenna. I can power up very quietly a high efficiency set of speakers like a fox hole radio, no amplification necessary. I can take a pair of wires and attach it to the sliding glass door frame directly behind the speakers and power up the speaker enough to listen to the radio station.
Now there is no mystery to what is happening, the RF is just overpowering the filtering that would normally be fine in anybody else house. From amplifier output to the speakers is more than 10 meters on one side and abut 8 meters on the other, so I have extremely long wire runs to pick up that signal. The wires were placed in the walls before they were closed up while building the house, they are twisted pair Belden wire of 16 gauge if I remember correctly. It just isn't good enough to do the job and get rid of all the RF.
Since I have lived here on and off for more than 40 years and so have many other neighbors and we have all been bombarded with this level of RF for so many years and there is not a cluster of brain cancers going on here this makes me question all those anecdotal statements that a cell phone next to your head will cause cancer, I and a bunch of us have been very passive lab rats in this long term study you could say. Rumors and myths are hard to stop, and disproving a negative as is said makes some of the claims in audio just have a life of their own.
Anyone who says that RF can't get into a speaker cable just hasn't experienced that. I have for years with not only my audio system but also things like phones and even my TV.
In my case I live directly line of sight within less than 100 yards from a major broadcast tower covered with all types of antenna. I can power up very quietly a high efficiency set of speakers like a fox hole radio, no amplification necessary. I can take a pair of wires and attach it to the sliding glass door frame directly behind the speakers and power up the speaker enough to listen to the radio station.
Now there is no mystery to what is happening, the RF is just overpowering the filtering that would normally be fine in anybody else house. From amplifier output to the speakers is more than 10 meters on one side and abut 8 meters on the other, so I have extremely long wire runs to pick up that signal. The wires were placed in the walls before they were closed up while building the house, they are twisted pair Belden wire of 16 gauge if I remember correctly. It just isn't good enough to do the job and get rid of all the RF.
Since I have lived here on and off for more than 40 years and so have many other neighbors and we have all been bombarded with this level of RF for so many years and there is not a cluster of brain cancers going on here this makes me question all those anecdotal statements that a cell phone next to your head will cause cancer, I and a bunch of us have been very passive lab rats in this long term study you could say. Rumors and myths are hard to stop, and disproving a negative as is said makes some of the claims in audio just have a life of their own.
If you need even faster optical links, like GHz, go this way
Selection Guide - Fiber Optic Solutions for Networking (433 KB)
Selection Guide - Fiber Optic Solutions for Networking (433 KB)
The next time someone throws the word "hallucination" at you, remind them that a center-panned instrument sounds like it's coming from a point in space where there's no loudspeaker- is that a "hallucination" or is it just the brain being fooled?
However, there are also true believers who think, believe and breathe the thesis that if two amps measure the same, then they ARE the same. As in fact Julian Hirsch of Hirsch-Hook Labs wrote in the late 70ies, resulting in his virtual ostracism from the mainstream audio media.
Can I prove the fallacy of this? Easily to whoever drops in for some coffe and a listen, I'll put the Philips AH280 power amp against the Marantz 170DC power amp, they have very similar published specs and are of very similar power outputs. Two completely different sounds. Available choices of preamps, digital or analog sources, easy to drive or nor so easy to drive speakers, pick your own poison. With or without power line filitering (sorry, no Bybee available).
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All wrong. In fact, it was a passion since the beginning (in the early 70). And my artwork was appreciated enough to be in charge of it. (see the image)
At this time, we had no computers to help us.
Now, when i see the artwork of people like AlexMM, who am-i to think i could do better ? (http://www.esperado.fr/images/stories/protection/PCB_ESP_REV_1-9.jpg)
Attachments
It isnt your pcb grounding system..... its the A-P and PC connected to the amp/A-P. Everything gets floated. [jumpered signal ground to spkr ground for test]
The heat sink is Still too small IMO. So, if I want to listen to it, I'll have to order larger heat sinks. Guess, I'll just go to a large chassis with heat sinks on sides next.
I especially like the fact that the thd doesnt change very much at various power levels and frequencies and stays below -100dB.
Checking 4 Ohm next.
THx-RNMarsh
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My audio pal back then measured them, he had a pro scope at home, I didn't.
Even in series with a dummy load, including capacitors.
Audited on several loudspeakers, including ESL63.
I passed them on to his son for 50 bucks.
(more money than blood flow, or more brains than cash flow, tough choice)
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