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Old 22nd October 2015, 02:25 PM   #711
Mark Johnson is offline Mark Johnson  United States
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If it's a DIY project and not a commercial product that has to compete with other commercial products on (price-to-performance ratio), just use Brute Force and Massive Overkill.
  • Assume 3 Watts into 16 ohms (!)
  • Assume 7V across output pullup and 7V across output pulldown: MaxVout = V+rail - 7V
  • Assume 15% efficiency: Pout = 0.15 * Pin
Then
  • IoutRMS = sqrt(3W / 16ohms) = 0.43A
  • IoutPeak = sqrt(2) * 0.43 = 0.61A
  • VoutRMS = sqrt(16ohms * 3W) = 6.93V
  • VoutPeak = sqrt(2) * 6.93 = 9.80V
  • Vsupply+ = 7V + 9.80V = 17 volts
  • Vsupply- = -7V + -9.80V = -17 volts
  • Pin = (3W / 0.15) = 20 watts
  • Pin = Isupply * Vsupply, therefore
  • Isupply = (20W / (17V+17V)) = 0.588A

Thus you need a bipolar power supply that provides at least 0.6A to drive the lowest-imaginable-impedance headphones (16R). At that headphone impedance the bipolar supply voltage needs to be at least ±17 volts. On the other hand if your headphones are 250 ohms impedance, and if you want to pump 3 Watts into them (!), your bipolar supplies need to be at least ±34 volts {proof left as an exercise for the reader}.

Don't forget to account for mains sag, transformer loss, diode bridge voltage drop, CRC voltage drop, and max ripple.
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Old 23rd October 2015, 06:07 PM   #712
SGK is offline SGK
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Thanks. I very stupidly forgot everything I had read regarding audio amplifiers and then posted a very dumb question as a result. Sorry.

The maximum current the output buffers (LME49610) of the Wire BAL-BAL can provide is 250mA. There's a pair per channel and obviously two channels. So even if both channels were driven to maximum that's 0.5A. There's also about 80mA or so of quiescent current (depending on rail voltages) plus losses in supply itself (bleeder resistors etc).

I don't think I need rail voltages above +-12V (well below the +-22V max of the LME49610). Even relatively low sensitivity cans, e.g. 85dBSPL@1mW with impedance of 18 Ohms need less than 11V to hit the threshold of pain which I have no interest experiencing intentionally. The 18 Ohm impedance headphones I'd like to own have a significantly greater efficiency and other cans I might covet with lower efficiency have a much friendlier impedance.

My supply can handle a LOT more than 0.6A and even at those current levels the thermals are readily manageable (and even above) as I will simply bolt the pass transistor (and rectifier diodes) to the base of the chassis as that's the way my existing boards are configured anyway. Apart from the quiescent current both + and - pass transistors aren't passing current at the same time.

I'll ensure my transformer secondaries supply enough headroom voltage for the regs at the low end of mains supply. A quick look suggests 15V secondaries to ensure 5V of Vin-Vout differential at the low end of the mains. Obviously the headroom and dissipation will be higher at the high end of mains supply but should still be okay. I should oversize the transformer so something between 30VA and 50VA should be more than excessive.

I just need to think about capacitors for the supply input filters of the reg boards (10mm pitch). Those I used for my last project (Mundorf Lytic AG) are likely excessive (plus they're expensive). The range of electrolytics out there is bewildering. Anyone have a favourite brand and series for this sort of application which they'd care to recommend?
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Old 23rd October 2015, 07:38 PM   #713
IanAS is offline IanAS  England
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With the wire Bal-Bal, for each channel, both LME49610s conduct the current at the same time, because it's 'balanced', there are two amplifiers in parallel, but with a common supply. The current path is from, eg, the +ve capacitor plate, to one LME49610, to the voice coil, to the other LME49610, to the -ve capacitor plate.

I've not yet tried various regulators with the Bal-Bal, but with the three transistor discrete I have there now, when it fed my CD player DAC and output chips, every different transformer I used changed the sound from the speakers, and not by a small amount. I have 50,000uF or so on there and it just got better and better the more I added, and they're all decent types, Black Gates, Nichicon KZ, Oscon, Polymer.

Despite what some people say about local decoupling on that headphone amp, it's clearly not that simple (with my existing reg) as I added 4 x 100uF black gates across the 4 x supplied polymers already on there, and got a load more bass (louder and more transient, just the same as Black Gates always do).

So, I'm going to have to try a few other regulators, starting with the subject of this thread, to hear for myself if any do confer immunity to the pre-regulator components, which will be a boon as I have a bespoke made for me 100VA on a 300VA M0 core toroid feeding a big board of expensive caps taking up space that I could free up.

I'm hoping a decent regulator, direct onto the pins of the LME49610s, will do better than the local banks of Black Gates and polymers.

And sorry to all reading this that I haven't done it already and reported back and we're suddenly(!) on post 713!

Last edited by IanAS; 23rd October 2015 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 2nd November 2015, 02:31 AM   #714
noviygera is offline noviygera  United States
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Found this interesting statement regarding regulators:

"Liner regulators hold the voltage stable and have low output impedance up to a maximum of 20 KHz for very good regulators. Beyond this, the internal resistance of the regulator rises. In addition, the problem of Ground Bounce results due to the phenomenon of constant voltage. This means that the current varies according to the load and change of signal. This change of current results in the change of voltage at signal ground which in turn acts as interference to the passing analog signal. This effect especially the circuits with high gain (Phono). The advantage of our cross regulator is that the current is held at a constant level. Therefore it produces less interference at the signal ground. The tone is much more clear. Comparative tests have confirmed this result."

Can anyone share their knowledge on voltage vs. current regulators?
Is the superreg performing current regulation or just voltage regulation?
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Old 2nd November 2015, 04:13 AM   #715
peranders is offline peranders  Sweden
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Do you have any source for this info?
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Old 2nd November 2015, 04:16 AM   #716
noviygera is offline noviygera  United States
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Sure:

TECHNOLOGY - Crayon-Audio
look in the "Power regulator for the small signal amplifier" paragraph.
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Old 2nd November 2015, 05:03 AM   #717
peranders is offline peranders  Sweden
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I feel that the text is marketing BS. You have (or could have) ground bounces in digital circuits for sure but hardly in analog low level circuits.

The super regulator is a voltage regulator.
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Old 3rd November 2015, 02:14 AM   #718
Triodethom is offline Triodethom  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peranders View Post
I feel that the text is marketing BS. You have (or could have) ground bounces in digital circuits for sure but hardly in analog low level circuits.

The super regulator is a voltage regulator.
Agreed . Crayon use of the term "current compensated chokes" reinforces the hype view. Choke are a passive current change resisting device that stores energy . to call it current compensated is ok but a clear sign that the marketing department is at work fluffing up the standard features of passive part trying to make it special when they all do the same thing. Well at least that is the way it looks to me.
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Old 16th November 2015, 02:28 AM   #719
Mobin is offline Mobin  United States
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I'm not sure where I went wrong, when I have the power supply hooked up to my Ba-3 front end the power supply was shorting out and the light bulb tester would light up I rewired the supply to the preamp and it was working but had a loud hum, then it started shoring out again. When I unhook the supply board from the preamp it works fine. Did I ruin a op amp or regulator?

Last edited by Mobin; 16th November 2015 at 02:29 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 16th November 2015, 08:07 AM   #720
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
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Logical next step would be to load the supply with a power resistor pulling the foreseen load current and see if it works then. Otherwise you never know whether the problem is the supply, the load, or the connections between the two.

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