Is it ok to make a subwoofer using sony XM-552ZR amp and XS-L120P5H for home use. I am using Yamaha RX-V450 receiver. As this amp already has sub x-over and phase selection inbuilt I guess is I won't need it in the sub amp.
I am from Kolkata(Westbengal, India), and they don't sell any plate amp for subs here.
The cost will be something around Rs. 7000 for sub+amp plus around Rs. 600 fot the cabinet.
I don't think I will get a decent ready made sub for Rs7600 in Kolkata. So that justifies my need to make one.
What are the pitfalls fo using car components for home use?
I am from Kolkata(Westbengal, India), and they don't sell any plate amp for subs here.
The cost will be something around Rs. 7000 for sub+amp plus around Rs. 600 fot the cabinet.
I don't think I will get a decent ready made sub for Rs7600 in Kolkata. So that justifies my need to make one.
What are the pitfalls fo using car components for home use?
Well, my basic problem is that I won't get a plate amp for sub in Kolkata. This very fact is making me look for substitutes. But I have a Kenwood stereo amp (150W/channel). Is it possiable to use that as my sub amp with feed from my receiver's sub outlet and using a low pass x-over in the sub?
Is there any other way out? for me getting a sub amp is the main problem. And I don't know anything about making an amp let alone a sub amp!
Help! anybody?
Is there any other way out? for me getting a sub amp is the main problem. And I don't know anything about making an amp let alone a sub amp!
Help! anybody?
madman29 said:Well, my basic problem is that I won't get a plate amp for sub in Kolkata. This very fact is making me look for substitutes. But I have a Kenwood stereo amp (150W/channel). Is it possiable to use that as my sub amp with feed from my receiver's sub outlet and using a low pass x-over in the sub?
Is there any other way out? for me getting a sub amp is the main problem. And I don't know anything about making an amp let alone a sub amp!
Help! anybody?
Hi,
The subout from your reciever is already filtered, split it using
a Y cable into left and right of a stereo power amplifer, use each
channel to drive one coil of a dual coil subwoofer driver.
/sreten.If you can power the car amp then the answer is a qualified 'yes' .
If you have a SUB out from the hifi amp, then you can bypass the x-over in the car amp and feed its output to the speaker ( otherwise use the x-over ).
If the speaker is DVC ( Dual Voice Coil ) then you can drive each coil from a channel on the amp OR run the amp in bridged mode (if it will) and drive one or both coils from that.
If the amp will handle a low impedance load (i.e 2R assuming the speaker is DVC) then you will get the maximum power out this way.
Do not be tempted to use a car-type sub enclosure in a house, it is likely to sound terrible. Car speaker boxes are designed to accomodate 'cabin gain' in order to sound good in a car. In a house they will sound thin and pathetic. Build a proper enclosure to match your room.
If you have a SUB out from the hifi amp, then you can bypass the x-over in the car amp and feed its output to the speaker ( otherwise use the x-over ).
If the speaker is DVC ( Dual Voice Coil ) then you can drive each coil from a channel on the amp OR run the amp in bridged mode (if it will) and drive one or both coils from that.
If the amp will handle a low impedance load (i.e 2R assuming the speaker is DVC) then you will get the maximum power out this way.
Do not be tempted to use a car-type sub enclosure in a house, it is likely to sound terrible. Car speaker boxes are designed to accomodate 'cabin gain' in order to sound good in a car. In a house they will sound thin and pathetic. Build a proper enclosure to match your room.
And I don't know anything about making an amp let alone a sub amp!
By the way , there is nothing special about a 'sub amp' versus a normal stereo amp, except that driving a sub doesn't need as wide a bandwidth as a normal amp, and possibly the PSU needs to be a little more robust.
My advice is to forget about the car amp and to drive the car sub from another 'normal' stereo amp, as long as you can find one which will handle the car subs impedance ( which is likely to be 4R / coil ) a lot of inexpensive ( and some expensive ) amps don't like loads lower than 6R. If your sub is DVC then you can wire the coils in series to make 8R , and any hifi amp will drive that !
Footnote: A quick check on Google tells me that the XS-L120P5H is a single voice coil , which complicates things a little. Find a hifi amp pwhich will drive 4R loads, it will be easier than trying to drive a car amp.
By the way , there is nothing special about a 'sub amp' versus a normal stereo amp, except that driving a sub doesn't need as wide a bandwidth as a normal amp, and possibly the PSU needs to be a little more robust.
My advice is to forget about the car amp and to drive the car sub from another 'normal' stereo amp, as long as you can find one which will handle the car subs impedance ( which is likely to be 4R / coil ) a lot of inexpensive ( and some expensive ) amps don't like loads lower than 6R. If your sub is DVC then you can wire the coils in series to make 8R , and any hifi amp will drive that !
Footnote: A quick check on Google tells me that the XS-L120P5H is a single voice coil , which complicates things a little. Find a hifi amp pwhich will drive 4R loads, it will be easier than trying to drive a car amp.
Amp for the sub
The amp I will use for the sub is Kenwood Ka-2200 which you all can check out in this site
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/ka-1100.htm
(It is the same as this TRIO modle)
As for bridging the amp for a mono output I don't know if it is possiable with this amp though it can produce 4ohms output which is selectable from the back panel. It also has a mono/stereo switch. I think I will use a Pioneer Car sub for this but yet to select the model.
The sub I want to make should have the speaker at the bottom in a down firing position. As I have seen in most of the cars they fit the sub facing upward behind the back seat. So is it also ok to fit it in a down firing position? Should I make the box sealed or bassreflex? which works better for a car sub?
The amp I will use for the sub is Kenwood Ka-2200 which you all can check out in this site
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/ka-1100.htm
(It is the same as this TRIO modle)
As for bridging the amp for a mono output I don't know if it is possiable with this amp though it can produce 4ohms output which is selectable from the back panel. It also has a mono/stereo switch. I think I will use a Pioneer Car sub for this but yet to select the model.
The sub I want to make should have the speaker at the bottom in a down firing position. As I have seen in most of the cars they fit the sub facing upward behind the back seat. So is it also ok to fit it in a down firing position? Should I make the box sealed or bassreflex? which works better for a car sub?
The downfiring position I think will make it more or less behave as a compound enclosure. This will make it possible to reduce the cabinet size in order to maintain same roll-off freq.
On top of that the coupling to the floor will increase the bass-output on a certain low freq.bandwidth. Keep these things in mind...
Closed would have my recommendation (will result in even smaller size cabinet...)
To stay within your budget:
http://www.marchandelec.com/ftp/xm46man.pdf
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
Any amp can be filtered-out above very low freqs. in a passive way at very low cost. I think the +/- 10db filters on the kenwood will not give satisfying results...
On top of that the coupling to the floor will increase the bass-output on a certain low freq.bandwidth. Keep these things in mind...
Closed would have my recommendation (will result in even smaller size cabinet...)
To stay within your budget:
http://www.marchandelec.com/ftp/xm46man.pdf
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
Any amp can be filtered-out above very low freqs. in a passive way at very low cost. I think the +/- 10db filters on the kenwood will not give satisfying results...
Should I make the box sealed or bassreflex? which works better for a car sub?
That depends on a couple of factors:
most car subs are designed to have a large Xmax ( linear cone excursion ) which tends to suit a vented or ported enclosure.
ported boxes typically are larger than sealed ones, and provided you get the porting right will deliver lower bass extension - typically an octave lower but with a steeper roll-off below f3
ported boxes are harder to make and demand higher accuracy and you absolutely must get the port dimensions right or it will sound dreadful.
Don't try to make the box too small or the port length will be massive.
sealed boxes are easier to make , will work with pretty much any driver , and are smaller. The only real demand is that they are properly sealed - any air leaks will affect the performance.
Car audio usually demands less sonic purity than home audio where there's no road noise to mask bad subs , as result it is common to find ported subs with badly sized ports, and high Q's to keep the box size down.
My personal preference would be for a sealed box with a Q of 0.7
If you are feeling brave then try a ported box, but make sure you have the dimensions right , and again aim for a Q of around 0.7
That depends on a couple of factors:
most car subs are designed to have a large Xmax ( linear cone excursion ) which tends to suit a vented or ported enclosure.
ported boxes typically are larger than sealed ones, and provided you get the porting right will deliver lower bass extension - typically an octave lower but with a steeper roll-off below f3
ported boxes are harder to make and demand higher accuracy and you absolutely must get the port dimensions right or it will sound dreadful.
Don't try to make the box too small or the port length will be massive.
sealed boxes are easier to make , will work with pretty much any driver , and are smaller. The only real demand is that they are properly sealed - any air leaks will affect the performance.
Car audio usually demands less sonic purity than home audio where there's no road noise to mask bad subs , as result it is common to find ported subs with badly sized ports, and high Q's to keep the box size down.
My personal preference would be for a sealed box with a Q of 0.7
If you are feeling brave then try a ported box, but make sure you have the dimensions right , and again aim for a Q of around 0.7
The logic is that the more indirect radiation and coupling to (large) surfaces will sort of "cloud" the bass or at least will eq the performance. Sometimes clouding is not very evident in the result if the acoustic eq-ing is wanted, as low freqs travel pretty easy..
Closed boxes should not be entirely sealed, pressure differnces in the atmosphere could cause the cone to stay in an off-centered position. Many manufacturers deliberately make a very tiny hole in the cabinet in order to let air in-out. Or they benefit from a poorly glued six-panel.
Offcourse they shouldn't leak to much, make hissing/puffing or even whistling sounds. The cone should return into centered pos. real slowly (remind that this should not affect Q).
Closed boxes should not be entirely sealed, pressure differnces in the atmosphere could cause the cone to stay in an off-centered position. Many manufacturers deliberately make a very tiny hole in the cabinet in order to let air in-out. Or they benefit from a poorly glued six-panel.
Offcourse they shouldn't leak to much, make hissing/puffing or even whistling sounds. The cone should return into centered pos. real slowly (remind that this should not affect Q).
"The logic is that the more indirect radiation and coupling to (large) surfaces will sort of "cloud" the bass or at least will eq the performance. Sometimes clouding is not very evident in the result if the acoustic eq-ing is wanted, as low freqs travel pretty easy.."
I doubt this is significant enough to be audible if there is sufficient clearance, unless the crossover is set too high. Certainly not sufficient to render a sub inaccurate.
I'm not a fan of downfiring configuration for a few reasons:
* you don't get to see the driver
* warranty is often invalidated
* useable excursion is effectively reduced due to cone sag
I doubt this is significant enough to be audible if there is sufficient clearance, unless the crossover is set too high. Certainly not sufficient to render a sub inaccurate.
I'm not a fan of downfiring configuration for a few reasons:
* you don't get to see the driver
* warranty is often invalidated
* useable excursion is effectively reduced due to cone sag
The test with someone moving a speaker from-and towards the floor shows a very significant difference in sound. Even when eq-ing real- time I like the woofers lifted from the ground to listening-height best in my room. (I also like a left and a right sub (stereo) better though I seem quite unique in this preference ...)
...)
Interesting. What is your xo point and slope?
I have gone from dual mono subs on either side of the room to both of them placed next to each other on one side to both drivers in one box push pull back to back mounted, and I prefer the latter, but only because box vibration and distortion are less with push pull.
I have gone from dual mono subs on either side of the room to both of them placed next to each other on one side to both drivers in one box push pull back to back mounted, and I prefer the latter, but only because box vibration and distortion are less with push pull.
It's a second order filter at aprox. 200 hz (I know it's a bit high and therefore more sensitive to placement, but I have to because my esl panels don't go deeper). I use two "precision devices" 10" custom papercone woofers in a labyrinth housing. (I use the same amp in my car with an smps and filter at 100 hz there because my sub is behind me and the main speakers in front. Filtering lower here helps, but it's still not perfect).
The filter is mlssa and human ear tuned.
In the past I filtered the subs at just under 100 hz when I still combined them with bookshelves (chario academy). It was in this period I allready developed my preference for stereo subs and noticed that there is imaging loss with a mono sub (or stereo in one box).
Placing a mono sub near the floor makes a total mess of the sound compared to two subs (at lower volume level offcourse) placed near (in my case directly under) the main speakers on a decent stand.
With the sub near the floor the vibrations in the floor are a lot more powerful. Only little energy is needed to make a floor (low fs) produce loud enough (mostly delayed) bass frequencies that can"smear" the waves and give another kind of distortion. Many times the "room acoustics" are solely blamed though decoupling the
enclosure from the floor mostly improves things a lot. The same speakers can sound horrible or great in the same room merely by placing them differently.
I think accurate sub-bass is much more critical to the listening experience than is mostly accounted for, there are a lot of factors overlooked and appearence of the design given the right of way. (looks over soundquality..) In the shop I used to work "blind testing" showed very revealing results. There are combined factors that just can't be measured.
The fact that human hearing allows us to even hear under 100 hz strengthens my belief, the distance between two subs and the resulting timing difference between the two I think adds a lot to a better "imaging experience".
An exaggerated example of this is my connecting a bose acoustimass set in a large room (for a customer who just had to have these awfull speakers). Experts can say low freqs can't be localised. Well I heard something "boom" on the floor somewhere and it seemed to have nothing to do with the completely bass lacking "main speakers". The more you pull them apart the worse it gets is a common rule for any system. The customer bought an extra stereo amp and sub and was MUCH more satisfied.
My advise would be to use two push-pulls on both sides, have someone else do the switching on an a/b test and decide what sounds best.
It's much like health, people can say:"I'm fine" because they just stress their tiredness away, they'd be really fine sleeping better.
People can say "this sounds fine" though the sound is manipulated "sort of fine", reproducing (ideally from two point sources) the way it's been captured (theoretically two points like ears or mics) in my opinion leads to most real reproduction.
Most people regard my quest unnecessary though, they just like a good "thump" and deaffening treble and find it sounds sensational,
unfortunately many producers mess it up the same way....
The filter is mlssa and human ear tuned.
In the past I filtered the subs at just under 100 hz when I still combined them with bookshelves (chario academy). It was in this period I allready developed my preference for stereo subs and noticed that there is imaging loss with a mono sub (or stereo in one box).
Placing a mono sub near the floor makes a total mess of the sound compared to two subs (at lower volume level offcourse) placed near (in my case directly under) the main speakers on a decent stand.
With the sub near the floor the vibrations in the floor are a lot more powerful. Only little energy is needed to make a floor (low fs) produce loud enough (mostly delayed) bass frequencies that can"smear" the waves and give another kind of distortion. Many times the "room acoustics" are solely blamed though decoupling the
enclosure from the floor mostly improves things a lot. The same speakers can sound horrible or great in the same room merely by placing them differently.
I think accurate sub-bass is much more critical to the listening experience than is mostly accounted for, there are a lot of factors overlooked and appearence of the design given the right of way. (looks over soundquality..) In the shop I used to work "blind testing" showed very revealing results. There are combined factors that just can't be measured.
The fact that human hearing allows us to even hear under 100 hz strengthens my belief, the distance between two subs and the resulting timing difference between the two I think adds a lot to a better "imaging experience".
An exaggerated example of this is my connecting a bose acoustimass set in a large room (for a customer who just had to have these awfull speakers). Experts can say low freqs can't be localised. Well I heard something "boom" on the floor somewhere and it seemed to have nothing to do with the completely bass lacking "main speakers". The more you pull them apart the worse it gets is a common rule for any system. The customer bought an extra stereo amp and sub and was MUCH more satisfied.
My advise would be to use two push-pulls on both sides, have someone else do the switching on an a/b test and decide what sounds best.
It's much like health, people can say:"I'm fine" because they just stress their tiredness away, they'd be really fine sleeping better.
People can say "this sounds fine" though the sound is manipulated "sort of fine", reproducing (ideally from two point sources) the way it's been captured (theoretically two points like ears or mics) in my opinion leads to most real reproduction.
Most people regard my quest unnecessary though, they just like a good "thump" and deaffening treble and find it sounds sensational,
unfortunately many producers mess it up the same way....
The chosen one
Well I went to the market and took a look at different models of Sony and Pioneer and finally zeroed in on Pioneer TS-W306DVC. In Calcutta it is pretty cheap (Rs. 3500/). As one of the previous suggestions I will connect it with a Y cable from the receiver to the Kenwood Stereo Amp KA-2200 and will connect the sub from L/R outputs.
As for the sub one of my friend has built one using Pioneer (Premier) 126C which sounds OK to me. The one he made is sealed. He told me that he has stuffed the enclosure full with glass wool . Now is that necessary to make it sound good?
Do anybody have any idea about that how this sub is going to act as a downfiring one? The only point of making it downfiring is that I am trying to make it look like a centre table due to WAF with a glass top. (Now U all Know How Important WAF is)
It is really wonderful to see so many people respond. Thank U all and do keep in touch.
Will post any advancement in the project as they happen
Well I went to the market and took a look at different models of Sony and Pioneer and finally zeroed in on Pioneer TS-W306DVC. In Calcutta it is pretty cheap (Rs. 3500/). As one of the previous suggestions I will connect it with a Y cable from the receiver to the Kenwood Stereo Amp KA-2200 and will connect the sub from L/R outputs.
As for the sub one of my friend has built one using Pioneer (Premier) 126C which sounds OK to me. The one he made is sealed. He told me that he has stuffed the enclosure full with glass wool . Now is that necessary to make it sound good?
Do anybody have any idea about that how this sub is going to act as a downfiring one? The only point of making it downfiring is that I am trying to make it look like a centre table due to WAF with a glass top. (Now U all Know How Important WAF is)
It is really wonderful to see so many people respond. Thank U all and do keep in touch.
Will post any advancement in the project as they happen
Okay, so the sub will not be near walls, that's not bad..
I'd say try different heights from the floor.
Try reversed phase (from your listening position, quick A/B switching can help) and determine best bass output.
But glasswool?!
Yuckie (pardon me for the expression).
This material (especially in ported (vented) enclosures, I know your's isn't) is widely known for "breathing" small glass particles that can damage your health.
And there are a lot of alternatives that are known to "sound" even better..
I'd say try different heights from the floor.
Try reversed phase (from your listening position, quick A/B switching can help) and determine best bass output.
But glasswool?!
Yuckie
(pardon me for the expression).This material (especially in ported (vented) enclosures, I know your's isn't) is widely known for "breathing" small glass particles that can damage your health.
And there are a lot of alternatives that are known to "sound" even better..
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