hi guys! (and girls, if there are any
)
i plan to build a subwoofer. however, i am not sure if it would make an improvement in my music-only system! My main speakers already go pretty deep. there is still usefull output below 35 hertz. do you guys think a subwoofer would improve my music?
also: what is your view of the obove mentioned subject.
("when does using a subwoofer make sense in a music-only setup?")
all replies are welcome!!
!!
)i plan to build a subwoofer. however, i am not sure if it would make an improvement in my music-only system! My main speakers already go pretty deep. there is still usefull output below 35 hertz. do you guys think a subwoofer would improve my music?
also: what is your view of the obove mentioned subject.
("when does using a subwoofer make sense in a music-only setup?")
all replies are welcome!!
!!For me, a subwoofer in a music-only setup is absolutely necessary. It always depend on what type of music you listen.
Hip-hop, rap, techno, you need a sub.
For example: Lil Jon & Ying Yang Twins - Get Low
For example: DJ Tiësto - Battleship Grey
These tracks contains information at ~20 Hz.
You also need a sub for some metal, heavy metal, rock songs.
For example: Pink Floyd - Speak to me
That track contains information at ~20 Hz.
Any THX bass tests contains information at ~20 Hz.
You even need a sub for classical recordings! (organs, battle drums and such)
I have a Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 Ultra set and even with the sub which contains dual 8" flat to 30 Hz in-room and good extension at 25 Hz, it doesn't look good in these tracks, the sub is crying, overexcursioning, farting the whole time at high volumes.
That's why I'm currently building a sub that will be flat in-room to 15 Hz so I can play everything on it.
Hip-hop, rap, techno, you need a sub.
For example: Lil Jon & Ying Yang Twins - Get Low
For example: DJ Tiësto - Battleship Grey
These tracks contains information at ~20 Hz.
You also need a sub for some metal, heavy metal, rock songs.
For example: Pink Floyd - Speak to me
That track contains information at ~20 Hz.
Any THX bass tests contains information at ~20 Hz.
You even need a sub for classical recordings! (organs, battle drums and such)
I have a Klipsch ProMedia 5.1 Ultra set and even with the sub which contains dual 8" flat to 30 Hz in-room and good extension at 25 Hz, it doesn't look good in these tracks, the sub is crying, overexcursioning, farting the whole time at high volumes.
That's why I'm currently building a sub that will be flat in-room to 15 Hz so I can play everything on it.
Prior to Henry Kloss marketing the sub/satellite concept a couple of decades back there was no such thing as a subwoofer, and somehow we managed without them for 60 odd years. For pure music response to 35 Hz is quite adequate, though lower doesn't hurt. For HT going to 25 Hz will generally do it.
But then you look at high end stuff in that era, like Klipschorn, 104 dB/1W/1m efficiency and flat to 33 Hz fully horn loaded with a big 15 inches woofer rated at 100W RMS capable of 121 dB SPL in-room... that means at 20-25 Hz it still had adequate power...
We get more bass in new music than before, also you can experience organ bass in your home with a big subwoofer, something that you couldn't before...
We get more bass in new music than before, also you can experience organ bass in your home with a big subwoofer, something that you couldn't before...
BillFitzmaurice said:
Of course, most subs barely make it this far anyway, so it seems unsuprising that one could do without one.
You could look at this and say they are unnecessary, or you could look at it this way: for a sub to be worth having, it better get down really low and/or relieve the strain on the midwoofer. I think there could be some mileage in using lighter, more responsive midwoofs down to 50-100Hz and allowing the subs to take on the high excursion material south of there.
As usual, best approached as a system rather than shoehorning another transducer to cover a narrow 10-20 Hz window. My feeling is that approach gets you less coherence w/o much gain in extension.
If you look at megabuck systems, a lot are 4-ways which essentially have integrated stereo subs.
Like tiroth, my experience with subwoofing is confined to true infrabass-capable boxes- big and expensive. But the gain in naturalness is addictive; there may not be much music down there, but the phase behavior where there IS music is much improved.
And in my last two cone/box systems, I did essentially what he suggested: big old thangs (like JBL 2245H) running from 60-70 Hz down, high quality mid-size deals (like Dynaudio 17W-75) running the next couple of octaves. It makes integration a bit more complex, but actually easier to pull off.
And in my last two cone/box systems, I did essentially what he suggested: big old thangs (like JBL 2245H) running from 60-70 Hz down, high quality mid-size deals (like Dynaudio 17W-75) running the next couple of octaves. It makes integration a bit more complex, but actually easier to pull off.
For me it is essential at higher volumes with the music I listen to, which has a good deal of sub-35hz content. IMHO for loud listening of bass heavy music in general, you need to either:
1. have a dedicated low frequency reproducer (whether this is a sub or the woofer in a 3way) or
2. filter out some or all of the low bass.
I would not be happy with most 2ways for loud rock, orchestral, or electronic music, not because the bass is deficient, but because the midrange usually gets very sloppy when trying to do lots of bass.
1. have a dedicated low frequency reproducer (whether this is a sub or the woofer in a 3way) or
2. filter out some or all of the low bass.
I would not be happy with most 2ways for loud rock, orchestral, or electronic music, not because the bass is deficient, but because the midrange usually gets very sloppy when trying to do lots of bass.
Another reason to have a sub for music (or anything) is that, depending on your room, your main speakers might go plenty low but the best placement for imaging etc. isn't necessarily the best placement for delivering bass to your listening position. If you have a sub crossed over low enough, you can put it wherever it sounds best and leave your mains where they sound best.
My ideas of the usage of subwoofers are to increase the low frequency to a point that is natural/normal. Secondly, to remove the subwoofer frequency from the main speakers to increase the efficiency and avoid duplication.
Sy mentioned running from 60-70 hZ down which is the way things are supposed to be set up. Too high a crossover point and your system sounds like crap. The frequency of 60-70 HZ is chosen in all good commercial systems because it is non-directional in nature and therefore the subwoofer doesn't become a point source.
Personally, I like my EVX 180's tuned 4th order with a 2nd order electronic filter. Big box big sound.
Sy mentioned running from 60-70 hZ down which is the way things are supposed to be set up. Too high a crossover point and your system sounds like crap. The frequency of 60-70 HZ is chosen in all good commercial systems because it is non-directional in nature and therefore the subwoofer doesn't become a point source.
Personally, I like my EVX 180's tuned 4th order with a 2nd order electronic filter. Big box big sound.
well it depends
first of all what kind of subwoofer are you talking about?
there are those shi$# ones which have 5" to 8" sort of woofers made in china not worthy $5 which are good just for farting and burping (b@se)
and there are those worthy $5k, which have 15" to 18" woofers, or even 24" like cabase, which will improve any system
i think it is a matter of personal preference
someone can have electrostats and prefere coherent midrange
and will happily sacrify the bass
someone else will support them with abequate subwoofer
if you have excelent minimonitors, you should consider subwoofer
if you have excelent florstanding speakers which go all the way down, why bother
rather spend money on music
first of all what kind of subwoofer are you talking about?
there are those shi$# ones which have 5" to 8" sort of woofers made in china not worthy $5 which are good just for farting and burping (b@se)
and there are those worthy $5k, which have 15" to 18" woofers, or even 24" like cabase, which will improve any system
i think it is a matter of personal preference
someone can have electrostats and prefere coherent midrange
and will happily sacrify the bass
someone else will support them with abequate subwoofer
if you have excelent minimonitors, you should consider subwoofer
if you have excelent florstanding speakers which go all the way down, why bother
rather spend money on music
I listen to a lot of electronic music, and cross my mains to my subs at 40Hz. Without the subs it sounds very weak.
Maybe less so with rock, jazz or acoustic (I have loads of rock and blues and acoustic stuff, and a fair bit of be-bop too). But for my system and my ~main~ music yes a sub is essential.
(subs are flat to 15Hz btw, with twin 10's per side from 40 to 250Hz )
Crossing higher highlights the quality difference between my tempest subs and scan-speak bass units aswell, if that helps. Below 40 I can't really hear the difference. (I've had the s-speaks flat to 20 in room and there is no loss in quality switching to the tempests below 40 compared to the s-speaks on thier own) The main difference there is max output levels.
BillFitzmaurice :
In my system I can roll off the bass at 35Hz at either 24dB/oct to resemble vented, or 12dB/oct at 35Hz to resemble sealed system. (I use digital xo) I can definitely hear the loss of bass on nearly everything (including TV) so I'm staying with subs
I'd imagine 'back in the day' they would not have had the equipment / inclination to do much big bass stuff. ie no synthesisers to push out all the low Hz info..
Cheers,
Rob
Maybe less so with rock, jazz or acoustic (I have loads of rock and blues and acoustic stuff, and a fair bit of be-bop too). But for my system and my ~main~ music yes a sub is essential.
(subs are flat to 15Hz btw, with twin 10's per side from 40 to 250Hz )
Crossing higher highlights the quality difference between my tempest subs and scan-speak bass units aswell, if that helps. Below 40 I can't really hear the difference. (I've had the s-speaks flat to 20 in room and there is no loss in quality switching to the tempests below 40 compared to the s-speaks on thier own) The main difference there is max output levels.
BillFitzmaurice :
In my system I can roll off the bass at 35Hz at either 24dB/oct to resemble vented, or 12dB/oct at 35Hz to resemble sealed system. (I use digital xo) I can definitely hear the loss of bass on nearly everything (including TV) so I'm staying with subs
I'd imagine 'back in the day' they would not have had the equipment / inclination to do much big bass stuff. ie no synthesisers to push out all the low Hz info..
Cheers,
Rob
back in the day we mostly listen to records and you know turntable is always prone to mechanical feedback, even if you have high end table with vacuum, having a subwoofer going all the way down to arms resonance is not a good thing
we got rid of that with cds but for what price? convenience for sound quality
Yes it make a lot of sense
For now my setup is for music only. I agreed with most of the comments prior. But to me there is one point I like to make is that I like to litsen to moderate SPL no more than 93DB peak from my listen chair. With the subs cross from 60Hz down I can enjoy really good bass without being shout at by the mid and top range you normally do when pushing louder in order to get the bass. Everything balance out. Especially jazz, without the subs you would be missing a lot of double bass player's fancy moves! or you may not even know he was there with the band all along
just my 2 pennies..
The Butcher
For now my setup is for music only. I agreed with most of the comments prior. But to me there is one point I like to make is that I like to litsen to moderate SPL no more than 93DB peak from my listen chair. With the subs cross from 60Hz down I can enjoy really good bass without being shout at by the mid and top range you normally do when pushing louder in order to get the bass. Everything balance out. Especially jazz, without the subs you would be missing a lot of double bass player's fancy moves! or you may not even know he was there with the band all along
just my 2 pennies..
The Butcher
thanks alot guys! (and ofcourse the girls, if there are any )
i don't know how to quote, so: i copied an pasted the text below
quote:
Originally posted by adason
back in the day we mostly listen to records and you know turntable is always prone to mechanical feedback, even if you have high end table with vacuum, having a subwoofer going all the way down to arms resonance is not a good thing
we got rid of that with cds but for what price? convenience for sound quality
I do most listening on vinyl. My subs are sealed - isn't that safer than ported if you're not using a rumble filter (I don't) ?
Also my deck is in a small room off the listening room.
Cheers,
Rob
right!
what does "conveniece for sound quality mean"?
ofcourse there are other places to discuss this, but technically speaking, 'cd-sound' offers you more quality!
in your ears the distortion that accompanies record-playback may sound good, but that does not mean it is better quality! it is not my intention to start a discussion about this. i just know (almost) for a fact that cd-quality is almost as good as you might ever need. vinyl is of lesser quality when it comes to reproducing the sound of the master-tape.
also: the difference in sound-quality between any good designed ampifier or cd-player is nihil!
i've gotten pretty far off the topic (i started myself )
if anyone would like to discuss this subject some more, we could start another thread somewhere else on this site. please give me a sign if any of you would.
I have a pair (german, about $2500)of Canton RC-L's. they both have 2 8" woofers. i think bass is pretty linear till about 40 hz. i listen to al kinds of music. Now i am planning to build a subwoofer with two visaton woofers:
http://www.visaton.de/deutsch/artikel/art_477_1_19.html
Would a subwoofer with 2 of these woofers be good with my speakers? i personally have no idea. at what frequensie should i let the sub play along?
some specs. are at www.thielesmall.com:
http://thielesmall.com/database.asp
(the visaton W 300 S is a 12"woofer)
cheers guys!
)i don't know how to quote, so: i copied an pasted the text below
quote:
Originally posted by adason
back in the day we mostly listen to records and you know turntable is always prone to mechanical feedback, even if you have high end table with vacuum, having a subwoofer going all the way down to arms resonance is not a good thing
we got rid of that with cds but for what price? convenience for sound quality
I do most listening on vinyl. My subs are sealed - isn't that safer than ported if you're not using a rumble filter (I don't) ?
Also my deck is in a small room off the listening room.
Cheers,
Rob
right!
what does "conveniece for sound quality mean"?
ofcourse there are other places to discuss this, but technically speaking, 'cd-sound' offers you more quality!
in your ears the distortion that accompanies record-playback may sound good, but that does not mean it is better quality! it is not my intention to start a discussion about this. i just know (almost
) for a fact that cd-quality is almost as good as you might ever need. vinyl is of lesser quality when it comes to reproducing the sound of the master-tape.also: the difference in sound-quality between any good designed ampifier or cd-player is nihil!
i've gotten pretty far off the topic (i started myself
)if anyone would like to discuss this subject some more, we could start another thread somewhere else on this site. please give me a sign if any of you would.
I have a pair (german, about $2500)of Canton RC-L's. they both have 2 8" woofers. i think bass is pretty linear till about 40 hz. i listen to al kinds of music. Now i am planning to build a subwoofer with two visaton woofers:
http://www.visaton.de/deutsch/artikel/art_477_1_19.html
Would a subwoofer with 2 of these woofers be good with my speakers? i personally have no idea. at what frequensie should i let the sub play along?
some specs. are at www.thielesmall.com:
http://thielesmall.com/database.asp
(the visaton W 300 S is a 12"woofer)
cheers guys!
"it is not my intention to start a discussion about this. i just know (almost) for a fact that cd-quality is almost as good as you might ever need. vinyl is of lesser quality when it comes to reproducing the sound of the master-tape.
also: the difference in sound-quality between any good designed ampifier or cd-player is nihil!"
/Peter
) for a fact that cd-quality is almost as good as you might ever need. vinyl is of lesser quality when it comes to reproducing the sound of the master-tape.also: the difference in sound-quality between any good designed ampifier or cd-player is nihil!"
/Peter
Pan said:"it is not my intention to start a discussion about this. i just know (almost
also: the difference in sound-quality between any good designed ampifier or cd-player is nihil!"
/Peter
Wow, i think thats a rather taller order that you just stated! I am most curious as what facts you get from what you have just stated when reproducing sound!!!
I agree with tiroth. This isn't the place for that kind of "discussion". If that's what gets you off go pick a fight on AA, not here. Actually keyser, I assume that picking a fight wasn't your intent. But dropping a "CD's are better" tirade just because someone mentions vinyl is about the same thing. In anycase it is rude behavior, even on the internet.
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