Thank you for the input!
@ErineM: what do you think of the 15N850's capabilities below 100Hz?
I love my TD12M's so I bet the TD15H for example would be a good match. I have concerns regarding cost though since I live in Europe and will need to pay tax and custom on top of the shipping cost. Perhaps I could come out cheaper with a European brand?
I won't use them higher than 2-250Hz so I dont need perfect linearity to 800Hz or beyond. I think I will end up crossing them between 80-130Hz max since I want the TD12 to cover as much as possible up to 1100Hz where the mid horn takes over.
They will need to be able to take a beating though. I play quite loud at times and listen to all kind of bass heavy music including church organ (f.ex Michael Murray; "Chacone in G minor") and electronic acts like Yello and Infected Mushroom.
They dont need to dig too deep but would appreciate if they can handle 30Hz OK. I also think of using 2pcs per side, one in the bottom of the stack and one on top closest to the ceiling to battle room nodes and get some head room.
I see some use Beyma 15P80Nd with good result, I'll try to simulate them to see what could be expected.
@ErineM: what do you think of the 15N850's capabilities below 100Hz?
I love my TD12M's so I bet the TD15H for example would be a good match. I have concerns regarding cost though since I live in Europe and will need to pay tax and custom on top of the shipping cost. Perhaps I could come out cheaper with a European brand?
I won't use them higher than 2-250Hz so I dont need perfect linearity to 800Hz or beyond. I think I will end up crossing them between 80-130Hz max since I want the TD12 to cover as much as possible up to 1100Hz where the mid horn takes over.
They will need to be able to take a beating though. I play quite loud at times and listen to all kind of bass heavy music including church organ (f.ex Michael Murray; "Chacone in G minor") and electronic acts like Yello and Infected Mushroom.
They dont need to dig too deep but would appreciate if they can handle 30Hz OK. I also think of using 2pcs per side, one in the bottom of the stack and one on top closest to the ceiling to battle room nodes and get some head room.
I see some use Beyma 15P80Nd with good result, I'll try to simulate them to see what could be expected.
It makes a whole lot of bass in a relatively small box. Sounds great doing it. I've tried it in a 100L box tuned to 30hz.
I also listen to Infected Mushroom on occasion...and much more.
I would go with either BMS or Oberton if looking for relatively affordable top quality drivers.
Oberton 15NSW600 looks interesting.
Beyma 15P80nd is a little low on xmax. 15LEX1600 will move quite a bit more air.
What's your box size limit? That will ultimately determine what driver makes the most sense for value and clean output.
I also listen to Infected Mushroom on occasion...and much more.
I would go with either BMS or Oberton if looking for relatively affordable top quality drivers.
Oberton 15NSW600 looks interesting.
Beyma 15P80nd is a little low on xmax. 15LEX1600 will move quite a bit more air.
What's your box size limit? That will ultimately determine what driver makes the most sense for value and clean output.
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without having done any simulations, just looking at the specs, I am wondering what kind of cabinet you have your 12" drivers in at the moment.
According to specs, TD12M are capable of adequate bass (FS 38 Hz, 6mm xmax, B/L 16), and would be very suitable for a back loaded horn (qts .27).
What is your intention overall, from your comment it appears you ae using your td12M mainly for mids, is that correct? What size is your room? what about amplification, processing...? A little more information about your setup would help....
According to specs, TD12M are capable of adequate bass (FS 38 Hz, 6mm xmax, B/L 16), and would be very suitable for a back loaded horn (qts .27).
What is your intention overall, from your comment it appears you ae using your td12M mainly for mids, is that correct? What size is your room? what about amplification, processing...? A little more information about your setup would help....
@ErnieM: Thank you for your feedback. I guess you're right about the 15P80Nd. I have simulated the 15lex1600nd and it seems it could be a good alternative for me.
I'd like to keep the box size to 100-130l (3-4cf) and it seems with the simulations I've made that with modern pro woofers this is enough to get usable output down to 30Hz I just need to choose one
@bob4: I've made a long journey to get where I am today regarding the setup I have and the sound I think it produces. I've tested small horns, big horns, straight horns, folded horns and different direct radiators (8", 10", 12" and 15") from midbass around 100Hz and up. I have settled with the AE12 TDM in a small closed box for mid. It is quick enough to in a good way meet the 4"JBL 2451 (better than any 15" I've tested) and has enough output down low to be able to meet a sub below 70Hz (no 10" with high sensitivity I tested could do that equally well). Its character of sound is also one of the best I've heard in its intended frequency region.
As described earlier I listen to bass heavy music and at times at quite high levels. Today I use a pair of Lavoce SAN 214.50 for sub duty but would like to use them only for HT crossed very low. Using a pair or even 4pcs of 15" would give me sufficient space to test different placing together with the 12" and also let me experiment with cross over frequencies to the 12" higher then I would like to use a 21" or 18".
My room is 6x7m and processing is handled through a BSS160+BOB. I hope that helps
I'd like to keep the box size to 100-130l (3-4cf) and it seems with the simulations I've made that with modern pro woofers this is enough to get usable output down to 30Hz I just need to choose one
@bob4: I've made a long journey to get where I am today regarding the setup I have and the sound I think it produces. I've tested small horns, big horns, straight horns, folded horns and different direct radiators (8", 10", 12" and 15") from midbass around 100Hz and up. I have settled with the AE12 TDM in a small closed box for mid. It is quick enough to in a good way meet the 4"JBL 2451 (better than any 15" I've tested) and has enough output down low to be able to meet a sub below 70Hz (no 10" with high sensitivity I tested could do that equally well). Its character of sound is also one of the best I've heard in its intended frequency region.
As described earlier I listen to bass heavy music and at times at quite high levels. Today I use a pair of Lavoce SAN 214.50 for sub duty but would like to use them only for HT crossed very low. Using a pair or even 4pcs of 15" would give me sufficient space to test different placing together with the 12" and also let me experiment with cross over frequencies to the 12" higher then I would like to use a 21" or 18".
My room is 6x7m and processing is handled through a BSS160+BOB. I hope that helps
BMS 15N850 was the best choice for overall low distortion, extension, and linearity according to a comparative test between top 15" drivers. It's a bit expensive, but I think it would be the closest match to your AE's neutral character.
Many prosound drivers with a real 10+ mm xmax will work as well.
Search for member PVRX on the homecinema-fr forums for extensive tests on many prosound drivers.
Many prosound drivers with a real 10+ mm xmax will work as well.
Search for member PVRX on the homecinema-fr forums for extensive tests on many prosound drivers.
Impressive setup Joppe!
Just a thought..... Have you tried open baffle subwoofers yet? I know that it sounds like a ridiculous proposition for high level listening and "bass lover" application, but I have a fairly satisfying system at the moment, with just two cheap old Biltema (YES, THAT Biltema!!) 12" woofers run by a 250W PA amp in a 5 x 2,5 m size room with concrete walls. I use an older BSS Soundweb unit for processing. I get strong response down to 30 Hz (verified with RTA). I had to Eq out a 60 Hz room mode. What I really like about OB is that the bass is strong, yet not boomy and overpowering, and integrates very well with the rest of the system. Pitch distinction between different notes is also very good.
to be honest, I would have never bothered trying OB, but I happened to find this OB set in a dumpster..... just two cheap Biltema 12" woofers in U-frames, made of cheap particle board. Since I had processing and amp power available, I gave it a shot and was quite surprised how well it works. But I might just have been lucky with my room layout.....
I think it might be worth a shot for you, if you have tried many other things, and since you have excellent processing and high displacement 21" woofers at your disposal. It might or might not work well in your room, only one way to find out. On the downside it requires more amplifier power.....
Just a thought..... Have you tried open baffle subwoofers yet? I know that it sounds like a ridiculous proposition for high level listening and "bass lover" application, but I have a fairly satisfying system at the moment, with just two cheap old Biltema (YES, THAT Biltema!!) 12" woofers run by a 250W PA amp in a 5 x 2,5 m size room with concrete walls. I use an older BSS Soundweb unit for processing. I get strong response down to 30 Hz (verified with RTA). I had to Eq out a 60 Hz room mode. What I really like about OB is that the bass is strong, yet not boomy and overpowering, and integrates very well with the rest of the system. Pitch distinction between different notes is also very good.
to be honest, I would have never bothered trying OB, but I happened to find this OB set in a dumpster..... just two cheap Biltema 12" woofers in U-frames, made of cheap particle board. Since I had processing and amp power available, I gave it a shot and was quite surprised how well it works. But I might just have been lucky with my room layout.....
I think it might be worth a shot for you, if you have tried many other things, and since you have excellent processing and high displacement 21" woofers at your disposal. It might or might not work well in your room, only one way to find out. On the downside it requires more amplifier power.....
