Hi,
First off, I'm from Europe, so US drivers are slightly more expensive here. I've had some experience building lilmike horn subwoofers, liked them, got divorced, moved twice, and sold them because moving them was too heavy
I like to do woodwork, have all the tools you might need...
Now I settled down, and I'm looking to extend my current system. Main use is for HT, also some music. Main speakers are currently Canton CT2000 speakers. Not sure if I will keep them, would like to move to bigger infinity speakers as I like my Qb's as well, but my girlfriend likes the look of them. (other topic on that...)
My living room is actually 'Z' shaped, my TV is in a part which is 5*4,5 M. this gives out to a space of about 5*11 m and there is a veranda of 6*3M. So I do need something with an 'oompf' to notice something. There is a concrete floor with a solid wooden floor on top.
Budget: I would like to spend about 500 EUR for the driver(s). I have an amplifier, QSC EX1600, can do 1600 4 ohm in bridged. Also the mini DSP I have from the lilmike project. So should be enough power.
Space: I can build a box with an internal volume of about 250L (about 8 ft3). this is just big enough for a coffee table and by coincidence the recommended size for a ported UM 18-22. I agreed with the GF to add a concrete top on it Will add some mass to the sub so a win-win
Drivers: I have found multiple options available at a reasonable price:
- Dayton UM 18-22 d2, 410 EUR
- Sundown ZV4 18d2 (2nd hand) about 500 EUR
- 2 Dayton UM 15-22 d2, 580 EUR
Enclosure:
ported seems to be better given my room size and the limit of having only 1 sub. I have a preference towards a downfiring sub for the looks. If going for 2 drivers however, I do not have enough space to put them both downfiring, I would make 1 down and 1 front firing. Don't know (yet) where I would put the ports in that position. Best to make a sub with 2 drivers in 1 enclosure, or better put a divider in the box?
According to the guy selling the sundown, it beats the other 2 options as more db are generated on low frequencies. What is your view on this? The Fs of the Dayton is way superior in my opinion, but the xmax is more important according to the seller, it moves more air.
Other options I should consider?
thanks in advance for your help!
First off, I'm from Europe, so US drivers are slightly more expensive here. I've had some experience building lilmike horn subwoofers, liked them, got divorced, moved twice, and sold them because moving them was too heavy
I like to do woodwork, have all the tools you might need...Now I settled down, and I'm looking to extend my current system. Main use is for HT, also some music. Main speakers are currently Canton CT2000 speakers. Not sure if I will keep them, would like to move to bigger infinity speakers as I like my Qb's as well, but my girlfriend likes the look of them. (other topic on that...)
My living room is actually 'Z' shaped, my TV is in a part which is 5*4,5 M. this gives out to a space of about 5*11 m and there is a veranda of 6*3M. So I do need something with an 'oompf' to notice something. There is a concrete floor with a solid wooden floor on top.
Budget: I would like to spend about 500 EUR for the driver(s). I have an amplifier, QSC EX1600, can do 1600 4 ohm in bridged. Also the mini DSP I have from the lilmike project. So should be enough power.
Space: I can build a box with an internal volume of about 250L (about 8 ft3). this is just big enough for a coffee table and by coincidence the recommended size for a ported UM 18-22
. I agreed with the GF to add a concrete top on it Will add some mass to the sub so a win-winDrivers: I have found multiple options available at a reasonable price:
- Dayton UM 18-22 d2, 410 EUR
- Sundown ZV4 18d2 (2nd hand) about 500 EUR
- 2 Dayton UM 15-22 d2, 580 EUR
Enclosure:
ported seems to be better given my room size and the limit of having only 1 sub. I have a preference towards a downfiring sub for the looks. If going for 2 drivers however, I do not have enough space to put them both downfiring, I would make 1 down and 1 front firing. Don't know (yet) where I would put the ports in that position. Best to make a sub with 2 drivers in 1 enclosure, or better put a divider in the box?
According to the guy selling the sundown, it beats the other 2 options as more db are generated on low frequencies. What is your view on this? The Fs of the Dayton is way superior in my opinion, but the xmax is more important according to the seller, it moves more air.
Other options I should consider?
thanks in advance for your help!
Thanks! Putting them on 2 locations was not really 'negotiated' with my girlfriend Preferably one (bigger) box.
We agreed on kind of a 'stealth' subwoofer used as a side table (hence the concrete top). Will the concrete vibrate too much? I was thinking 10cm (3inch) thick, bolted to the top.
I tried to draw my layout in excel, it's in attachment. the SW would be next to the coach. I could possible put a SW next to speaker 2 (SP2) but will need to be discussed with the girlfriend.
I also have convector pits, which are not great for sound. The SW would be next to it, at least 50cm away from it, not sure if it will affect sound? There is also quite a lot of glass at the back of my house, it's almost completely glass, not sure if I need to take this into account as well. It's a free standing house, so I don't need to worry about neighbours I used a scale of 1m.
Main reason why I would go for 1 larger sub instead of 2 separate smaller subs is to be able to reach lower frequencies with enough SPL. Not sure if my assumption is correct though.
Thanks!
Preferably one (bigger) box. We agreed on kind of a 'stealth' subwoofer used as a side table (hence the concrete top). Will the concrete vibrate too much? I was thinking 10cm (3inch) thick, bolted to the top.
I tried to draw my layout in excel, it's in attachment. the SW would be next to the coach. I could possible put a SW next to speaker 2 (SP2) but will need to be discussed with the girlfriend.
I also have convector pits, which are not great for sound. The SW would be next to it, at least 50cm away from it, not sure if it will affect sound? There is also quite a lot of glass at the back of my house, it's almost completely glass, not sure if I need to take this into account as well. It's a free standing house, so I don't need to worry about neighbours
I used a scale of 1m.Main reason why I would go for 1 larger sub instead of 2 separate smaller subs is to be able to reach lower frequencies with enough SPL. Not sure if my assumption is correct though.
Thanks!
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There's nothing wrong in doing it, but I can't think of any particular advantage either, unless you're doing it for aesthetic purposes. However see my note below.
One of the bigger mistakes to make is to decide on a subwoofer's location before building and testing it. The subwoofer's location is going to have a significant, SIGNIFICANT impact on its perceived performance at your usual listening position. If you're planning to build one (or two), you should allow for some flexibility in its location, because where you might want to put it might not produce the best results. And having two separate boxes (instead of one big box) will allow for considerably more flexibility towards getting the best results.
Thanks for your quick reply! I agree with you, but I sold it as an extra table, not really as a subwoofer The location of a table is quite limited unfortunately.
I made a more detailed sketch of where I could put a subwoofer, or 2, based on a 50x50cm footprint (or slightly bigger).
Than I would need to make a table like SW next to the couch and a separate (smaller one) next to one of the speakers.
Would it be an option to put a big down firing sub next to the couch and a smaller one next to a speaker? Will blow the budget, having an 18 and a 15...maybe an 18 and a 12 is easier to sell,but will the 12 add anything?
all these choices
The location of a table is quite limited unfortunately.I made a more detailed sketch of where I could put a subwoofer, or 2, based on a 50x50cm footprint (or slightly bigger).
Than I would need to make a table like SW next to the couch and a separate (smaller one) next to one of the speakers.
Would it be an option to put a big down firing sub next to the couch and a smaller one next to a speaker? Will blow the budget, having an 18 and a 15...maybe an 18 and a 12 is easier to sell,but will the 12 add anything?
all these choices
Attachments
When you put a subwoofer in a room, you'll get a load of peaks and dips. As you walk around the room (or sit on a different seat), you'll get a different set of peaks and dips.
If you move the subwoofer, the peaks and dips (frequency and room location) will change.
The idea behind using two (or more) subwoofers is this: if one of them has a large cancellation in one place, the other might not. The result is that they "fill in" each other's issues and provide a smoother response in terms of frequency and location.
No amount of EQ will fix a room-related cancellation - if the sound is cancelled out, you cannot bring it back by simply turning it up.
2x 15" will have more output than 1x18", and if you can put the 2x15"s in different locations, you get the benefits of multi-sub setups.
Chris
If you move the subwoofer, the peaks and dips (frequency and room location) will change.
The idea behind using two (or more) subwoofers is this: if one of them has a large cancellation in one place, the other might not. The result is that they "fill in" each other's issues and provide a smoother response in terms of frequency and location.
No amount of EQ will fix a room-related cancellation - if the sound is cancelled out, you cannot bring it back by simply turning it up.
2x 15" will have more output than 1x18", and if you can put the 2x15"s in different locations, you get the benefits of multi-sub setups.
Chris
Thanks Chris. I have been thinking about it last few days, if I don't go for multiple drivers I will regret later on.
Meanwhile I have been looking around for European alternatives, but it seems all subs are made in the USA. You guys sure like your base!
I found a good deal on new Eminence drivers from the UK (thanks to the cheap GBP):
- 4 * Eminence LAB 12C 12" speakers for 600 EUR
- 2 * Dayton UM 15-22 speakers for 600 EUR
Now we decided on multiple subs, would you guys recommend going for 4 12 inchers or 2 15 inchers for the same price? The Dayton's might give some more SPL down low (20Hz)?
Meanwhile I have been looking around for European alternatives, but it seems all subs are made in the USA. You guys sure like your base!
I found a good deal on new Eminence drivers from the UK (thanks to the cheap GBP):
- 4 * Eminence LAB 12C 12" speakers for 600 EUR
- 2 * Dayton UM 15-22 speakers for 600 EUR
Now we decided on multiple subs, would you guys recommend going for 4 12 inchers or 2 15 inchers for the same price? The Dayton's might give some more SPL down low (20Hz)?
Also some other alternatives:
- 2 * Rockford Fosgate P3D4-15 for 500 EUR
- 2 * Acoustic Elegance IB15AU-4 not sure yet for the exact price, waiting info for european vendors
What could be the advantage of having 4 12"? Will the box size be larger to go to 20Hz with multiple 12 inchers?
Dayton vs the rockford fosgates or acoustic elegance? they all look quite good on paper...but not many info found on ppl building with these subs
Many thanks in advance to all of you for the input!
- 2 * Rockford Fosgate P3D4-15 for 500 EUR
- 2 * Acoustic Elegance IB15AU-4 not sure yet for the exact price, waiting info for european vendors
What could be the advantage of having 4 12"? Will the box size be larger to go to 20Hz with multiple 12 inchers?
Dayton vs the rockford fosgates or acoustic elegance? they all look quite good on paper...but not many info found on ppl building with these subs
Many thanks in advance to all of you for the input!
If you can put 4x 12"s in different locations, then you will be better off than with two.
It's a law of diminishing return - two sub locations is much better than one, three is a bit better than two, and four is a little bit better than three.
With subwoofers spread out, the room response will be more even as you move around, and should also be free of large cancellations.
With that money to spend, 4x LAB12 is a decent option, and would be my first preference. I'd probably go for sealed boxes to keep things compact, but a ported option will give more output.
Chris
It's a law of diminishing return - two sub locations is much better than one, three is a bit better than two, and four is a little bit better than three.
With subwoofers spread out, the room response will be more even as you move around, and should also be free of large cancellations.
With that money to spend, 4x LAB12 is a decent option, and would be my first preference. I'd probably go for sealed boxes to keep things compact, but a ported option will give more output.
Chris
Hi bobdebouwer
May I draw you attention to an alternative her in EU:
Earthquake DBXi 15 at a bit more than 300€ a piece
Earthquake DBXI-15D 15" Bas
SLAPS15 at 150€
Slaps-15
I think this combination at this price is quite hard to beat.
Go into ca 70l and you can add 200g for the SLAPS to make them go even a bit deeper.
Same combination in the Supernova MKVI-15D.
Have one in my HT ... but need more power for it (powered by one channel of an old LABgruppen LAB300), so building on a 1400W class d amp
My 2 cent
/Baldin
May I draw you attention to an alternative her in EU:
Earthquake DBXi 15 at a bit more than 300€ a piece
Earthquake DBXI-15D 15" Bas
SLAPS15 at 150€
Slaps-15
I think this combination at this price is quite hard to beat.
Go into ca 70l and you can add 200g for the SLAPS to make them go even a bit deeper.
Same combination in the Supernova MKVI-15D.
Have one in my HT ... but need more power for it (powered by one channel of an old LABgruppen LAB300), so building on a 1400W class d amp
My 2 cent
/Baldin
4x subwoofers will have the same response shape as one, when considering non-horn-loaded enclosures. That only applies outdoors, though.
Indoors, the room will totally dominate the response shape.
Here's the frequency response (modelled, although putting the measurement mic next to the cone matches closely) of my current HiFi speakers. -3dB point is 50Hz.
Here's what happened when I put them in my living room:
The bass actually goes up, peaks at 40Hz, and then comes down again. I use EQ to reduce the 40Hz mountain and the 70Hz peak, which gets me flat down to 10Hz.
So, when it comes to high-quality bass in a domestic environment, IMO the process should be:
- Choose a subwoofer system that can be distributed about the room, and will also provide enough output to satisfy.
- Place the subwoofers and take some measurements at the different listening positions. Be prepared to move the subwoofers around a bit.
- Once the response is as even as possible (in terms of variations between the different listening positions), then we can reach for the EQ controls.
It's possible to go further, and EQ/process each subwoofer separately, but that's not possible for everyone.
In my room, I was lucky - the frequency response is very similar in three out of the four seats, so I EQ'd to make the three seats happy. They're the ones that get used most anyway.
Chris
@Baldin: thanks! I modelled my options in WINISD, all in a vented enclosure:
green: dual 12 inch LAB12
red: dayton 15-22
purple: rockford fosgate p3 15
blue: earthquake
For a vented enclosure, actually, the dayton wins it on smoothness and ability to go deep, the double LAB12 wins on total SPL. They are massively loud, but show a dip.
The LAB12 did score worse on excursion (so I think more distortion?) and the air velocity in the ports (makes sense, as they move a lot of air).
The rockford is very similar to the dayton, slightly less, but neglect-able. would not hesitate to buy the rockford if I can't find the dayton.
I also modelled 1 18". As expected it could dig a bit deeper, but SPL was less than the other options.
@Chris: thanks! That's what I keep on reading indeed.
The sealed enclosure measurements are a bit of a mistery to me...when I calculate in WINISD none of the drivers go to 20Hz F3?
The 15" go deeper sealed compared to the dual 12". The 15" to about 28Hz, the dual 12" to about 32Hz. But how will they perform in the room, which will be best?
The Eminence LAB12 driver 'action' is almost gone, so I would need to make a decision. Based on the data I have now, only the Dayton 15" (2x) and LAB12 (4x) remain...Nice thing about the LAB12 is I could make a dual opposed box, without resonance. Nice thing about the Dayton 15" is they should go slightly deeper...
anyone who can help me out of my decision misery?
green: dual 12 inch LAB12
red: dayton 15-22
purple: rockford fosgate p3 15
blue: earthquake
For a vented enclosure, actually, the dayton wins it on smoothness and ability to go deep, the double LAB12 wins on total SPL. They are massively loud, but show a dip.
The LAB12 did score worse on excursion (so I think more distortion?) and the air velocity in the ports (makes sense, as they move a lot of air).
The rockford is very similar to the dayton, slightly less, but neglect-able. would not hesitate to buy the rockford if I can't find the dayton.
I also modelled 1 18". As expected it could dig a bit deeper, but SPL was less than the other options.
@Chris: thanks! That's what I keep on reading indeed.
The sealed enclosure measurements are a bit of a mistery to me...when I calculate in WINISD none of the drivers go to 20Hz F3?
The 15" go deeper sealed compared to the dual 12". The 15" to about 28Hz, the dual 12" to about 32Hz. But how will they perform in the room, which will be best?
The Eminence LAB12 driver 'action' is almost gone, so I would need to make a decision. Based on the data I have now, only the Dayton 15" (2x) and LAB12 (4x) remain...Nice thing about the LAB12 is I could make a dual opposed box, without resonance. Nice thing about the Dayton 15" is they should go slightly deeper...
anyone who can help me out of my decision misery?
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How they'll react in your room is entirely dependent on your room. I'm afraid I don't have the answer.
Bear in mind the curves you're showing are maximum SPL based on excursion and power input. You're unlikely to run them that hard all the time.
In your position, I'd take the 4x LAB12s. Best option for distributed subs, and plenty of output.
Chris
Bear in mind the curves you're showing are maximum SPL based on excursion and power input. You're unlikely to run them that hard all the time.
In your position, I'd take the 4x LAB12s. Best option for distributed subs, and plenty of output.
Chris
Hi bobdebouwer
I would also think box size matters quite a bit in reality
What are the different sizes you end up with?
I for sure do not think you need to go for a -3 dB point at 20Hz
My own non scientific investigation on material both music and movie, is that an aim for 25 Hz is optimal.
I haven't done any measurement on the Earthquake yet, but compared to my XLS 12 tuned at 25Hz, it seems to go deeper and has much more feeling of depth to it (physical like when you slam a door and feel the pressure).
When you are simulating, you also need to pay attention to the required power, and whether the driver can actually handle it.
Which will be best in room ... hard to say; these are all good drivers and worked out right will be good solutions.
The thing about having multiple subs are though an important point ... more is better because of room modes, which is really hard (or impossible) to remedy electronically ...
/Baldin
I would also think box size matters quite a bit in reality
What are the different sizes you end up with?
I for sure do not think you need to go for a -3 dB point at 20Hz
My own non scientific investigation on material both music and movie, is that an aim for 25 Hz is optimal.
I haven't done any measurement on the Earthquake yet, but compared to my XLS 12 tuned at 25Hz, it seems to go deeper and has much more feeling of depth to it (physical like when you slam a door and feel the pressure).
When you are simulating, you also need to pay attention to the required power, and whether the driver can actually handle it.
Which will be best in room ... hard to say; these are all good drivers and worked out right will be good solutions.
The thing about having multiple subs are though an important point ... more is better because of room modes, which is really hard (or impossible) to remedy electronically ...
/Baldin
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Just bought the 4 lab 12 speakers, i'm stoked!
Been reading a lot, going sealed with eq on my mini dsp will be best I think.
Just wondering, which setup:
2 woofers in 1 box front firing
2 woofers in 1 box opposite, 1 down and 1 up firing (dual opposed?
2 woofers in 1 box front firing BUT with a divider between both subs, so each its own box
I wonder if there is a difference in the output between thise options?
Been reading a lot, going sealed with eq on my mini dsp will be best I think.
Just wondering, which setup:
2 woofers in 1 box front firing
2 woofers in 1 box opposite, 1 down and 1 up firing (dual opposed?
2 woofers in 1 box front firing BUT with a divider between both subs, so each its own box
I wonder if there is a difference in the output between thise options?
Thanks!
I did a lot of reading on the web regarding sealed subwoofers, maybo to a point I did too much research
I found 3 commercial subs which use the LAB12 in a sealed or ported enclosure:
- BK Monolith +: ported, 95L (+ a rather short tube port)
- Zu Audio Undertone: estimated 60L sealed
- Zu Audio Submission: estimated 90L sealed
Seems like 95L is anyway the max size, ported or not. Which of the three versions would be best? As commercial companies choose those sizes, it must be the most optimal...
Still not sure about ported or not...Or 1 ported down firing and one sealed front firing in the same box? Would need different dsp though...and i only have a 2x4 mini dsp...
I did a lot of reading on the web regarding sealed subwoofers, maybo to a point I did too much research
I found 3 commercial subs which use the LAB12 in a sealed or ported enclosure:
- BK Monolith +: ported, 95L (+ a rather short tube port)
- Zu Audio Undertone: estimated 60L sealed
- Zu Audio Submission: estimated 90L sealed
Seems like 95L is anyway the max size, ported or not. Which of the three versions would be best? As commercial companies choose those sizes, it must be the most optimal...
Still not sure about ported or not...Or 1 ported down firing and one sealed front firing in the same box? Would need different dsp though...and i only have a 2x4 mini dsp...
If you're able to DSP your sub(s), use MSO (Multi Sub Optimizer). This will allow you to dial in the best settings for each individual sub, based on measurements of the sound in your room.
I've used it for DIY subs (more or less fixed location, because they are my speaker stands; they support Dynaudio monitors) and it's awesome! It's not the same as treating your acoustics, but it helps a lot to mitigate common modal problems.
I can honestly say that I've very rarely heard better integration between mains and subs and over the width of my sofa the frequency response is quite even.
I've used it for DIY subs (more or less fixed location, because they are my speaker stands; they support Dynaudio monitors) and it's awesome! It's not the same as treating your acoustics, but it helps a lot to mitigate common modal problems.
I can honestly say that I've very rarely heard better integration between mains and subs and over the width of my sofa the frequency response is quite even.
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