First I must note that I'm new... So please excuse some possibly obvious mistakes
My problem is as follows: I'm in the UK and hoping to build a sub for my secondary system, I'm having trouble finding components at prices that don't end up as near as "might as well not risk it" to a sub I'm already running on my main system which I'm more than happy with.
Having bought a nice new system (speakers/amp/dac) for the bedroom, it needs a subwoofer. It's nothing high end, but in many ways betters my downstairs "main" system - So I don't want to do it a disservice by partnering it with junk. This is a music system. If it can handle music as I'd like it too, occasional movies will be no trouble. I'd love to build my own subwoofer if I can make it financially not-silly to do so... I enjoy building things, but parts seem rather expensive.
The crux of the matter is this: I've got a BK XXLS400 and some DSP in the front room doing a wonderful job, and I'm having trouble figuring out a driver/amp/box pairing that would out-do the equivalent B-grade BK. Now, I'd be happy with a XLS200 for this new system (£315). But when a XXLS400 is £410 and shakes my window frames when needed while being quick enough to blend in well enough for my ears, it's a tough sell. I've heard subs that do some incredible things, but this is a home system, my expectations are realistic.
As an exercise, finding a driver that models how my 400 performs on my main system, then looking at the price of plate amplifiers to power it, I'm left wondering how to get anywhere close.
My hopes are thus:
-I'd like bass down somewhere into the 20-somethings. Basically I'd like to be able to play The Mountain Will Fall by Dj Shadow without having to imagine the low notes.
-It doesn't have to be loud, but it has to be quick and deep (enough).
-I don't mind if I have to make the box a reasonably daft size/shape, but this isn't a dedicated hifi room.
-As mentioned, I can tame the room with DSP.
-I would quite like a plate amplifier on the back powering the thing. That's not a deal-breaker, but it'd sure be nice having all the right controls in what I consider the right place.
Is that possible for a novice builder, when I suspect the XLS200 at £315 (or worst case the 400 at £410) will do me well enough?
I can't seem to model anything that gets close - but then I am a beginner at this driver/box modelling stuff.
Thanks for reading,
J James.
My problem is as follows: I'm in the UK and hoping to build a sub for my secondary system, I'm having trouble finding components at prices that don't end up as near as "might as well not risk it" to a sub I'm already running on my main system which I'm more than happy with.
Having bought a nice new system (speakers/amp/dac) for the bedroom, it needs a subwoofer. It's nothing high end, but in many ways betters my downstairs "main" system - So I don't want to do it a disservice by partnering it with junk. This is a music system. If it can handle music as I'd like it too, occasional movies will be no trouble. I'd love to build my own subwoofer if I can make it financially not-silly to do so... I enjoy building things, but parts seem rather expensive.
The crux of the matter is this: I've got a BK XXLS400 and some DSP in the front room doing a wonderful job, and I'm having trouble figuring out a driver/amp/box pairing that would out-do the equivalent B-grade BK. Now, I'd be happy with a XLS200 for this new system (£315). But when a XXLS400 is £410 and shakes my window frames when needed while being quick enough to blend in well enough for my ears, it's a tough sell. I've heard subs that do some incredible things, but this is a home system, my expectations are realistic.
As an exercise, finding a driver that models how my 400 performs on my main system, then looking at the price of plate amplifiers to power it, I'm left wondering how to get anywhere close.
My hopes are thus:
-I'd like bass down somewhere into the 20-somethings. Basically I'd like to be able to play The Mountain Will Fall by Dj Shadow without having to imagine the low notes.
-It doesn't have to be loud, but it has to be quick and deep (enough).
-I don't mind if I have to make the box a reasonably daft size/shape, but this isn't a dedicated hifi room.
-As mentioned, I can tame the room with DSP.
-I would quite like a plate amplifier on the back powering the thing. That's not a deal-breaker, but it'd sure be nice having all the right controls in what I consider the right place.
Is that possible for a novice builder, when I suspect the XLS200 at £315 (or worst case the 400 at £410) will do me well enough?
I can't seem to model anything that gets close - but then I am a beginner at this driver/box modelling stuff.
Thanks for reading,
J James.
I read this twice.... you need a horn. Lots of them out there to build and cheap to power. I’ve built a couple now and every quality preference you listed can be had with a horn, I would look into something that will play well from 20hz to 100hz +/-. Some can be pretty inexpensive to build, but it won’t be small if done properly.
Keep in mind he wants mid 20Hz extension. Doesn't need it to go loud. Lives in the UK and this is a second room system, the room is probably not that big.
The XLS200 does represent excellent value for money, is compact and will cope with EQ to get the bass where you want it.
Plate amps aren't cheap, capable subwoofer drivers aren't cheap either.
You could buy a pair of these.
https://uk.farnell.com/mcm-audio-select/55-2421/8-high-excursion-woofer-120w-rms/dp/8702918
Build two sealed cabinets. EQ the heck out of the lower end to get them to go deep. Can your DSP also do the crossover for the drivers too? A second hand amp of some kind from eBay would do for power.
We don't have a lot of choice when it comes to less expensive stuff in the UK.
It just depends on what you want to do. The XLS200 represents pretty good value for money and ticks a lot of boxes. Doing something like the above would end up less expensive it you did it right but would not be quite as easy to build or buy all the bits for.
You could always get a second hand sub? Then again I don't know what the second hand market is like either.
The XLS200 does represent excellent value for money, is compact and will cope with EQ to get the bass where you want it.
Plate amps aren't cheap, capable subwoofer drivers aren't cheap either.
You could buy a pair of these.
https://uk.farnell.com/mcm-audio-select/55-2421/8-high-excursion-woofer-120w-rms/dp/8702918
Build two sealed cabinets. EQ the heck out of the lower end to get them to go deep. Can your DSP also do the crossover for the drivers too? A second hand amp of some kind from eBay would do for power.
We don't have a lot of choice when it comes to less expensive stuff in the UK.
It just depends on what you want to do. The XLS200 represents pretty good value for money and ticks a lot of boxes. Doing something like the above would end up less expensive it you did it right but would not be quite as easy to build or buy all the bits for.
You could always get a second hand sub? Then again I don't know what the second hand market is like either.
Audiophile56472 - Horns... A horn (I assume we're talking about real horns not cleverly folded boxes) is a wondrous idea that is unfortunately one step beyond what I actually have space for. The UK is rather, well, cramped like that - although I'm better off than most!
Horns are something I need to mess about with at some point in my life though. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but the way things are going, probably later.
5th element - Now two (or more) sealed boxes isn't something I'd considered and ticks more, errrm, boxes. Thanks for the new source of UK friendly audio bits by the way. I'd not seen farnell before. I'm going to have to look about that place a lot more when I have more time on my hands.
I believe my DSP (I haven't actually got it yet, it's the standard 2 in - 4 out minidsp) can separately EQ up to four subs. I'm sure I heard somewhere that four is a good number, and I suspect it's better than one, two, or three. I believe I can DSP tweak the crossover point on the subwoofers. The mains are just going to be whatever they are.
Second hand values on decent subs seems quite strong btw. It's a shame. I'm still kicking myself for missing out on a twin 12" Genelec LSE studio jobbie in easy driving distance for only £1k a couple years ago.
Thanks for the ideas so far. Food for thought. Being cheap isn't my number one priority, but avoiding spending way more than a very acceptable ready-made solution only to end up with something compromised - that's a fairly high priority, especially since this'll be my first build!
Horns are something I need to mess about with at some point in my life though. Hopefully sooner rather than later, but the way things are going, probably later.
5th element - Now two (or more) sealed boxes isn't something I'd considered and ticks more, errrm, boxes. Thanks for the new source of UK friendly audio bits by the way. I'd not seen farnell before. I'm going to have to look about that place a lot more when I have more time on my hands.
I believe my DSP (I haven't actually got it yet, it's the standard 2 in - 4 out minidsp) can separately EQ up to four subs. I'm sure I heard somewhere that four is a good number, and I suspect it's better than one, two, or three. I believe I can DSP tweak the crossover point on the subwoofers. The mains are just going to be whatever they are.
Second hand values on decent subs seems quite strong btw. It's a shame. I'm still kicking myself for missing out on a twin 12" Genelec LSE studio jobbie in easy driving distance for only £1k a couple years ago.
Thanks for the ideas so far. Food for thought. Being cheap isn't my number one priority, but avoiding spending way more than a very acceptable ready-made solution only to end up with something compromised - that's a fairly high priority, especially since this'll be my first build!
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KaffiMann - I don't have an amp with DSP built in - I'm not expecting to use one unless luck/price/ebay lines up and it accidentally happens to be the amp that's available.
Budget wise, I can get more than I need from a ready made £315 subwoofer, and way more than I need from a ready made £415 subwoofer... Hence the thread - it seems hard to build anything (including amplification) for less than that at UK prices! So 200 400 pounds is my ballpark.
At the moment I'm quite curious about multiples of the driver 5th element suggested scattered about the room, or perhaps a 10" version if possible - Assuming a suitable amplifier could be found.
Budget wise, I can get more than I need from a ready made £315 subwoofer, and way more than I need from a ready made £415 subwoofer... Hence the thread - it seems hard to build anything (including amplification) for less than that at UK prices! So 200 400 pounds is my ballpark.
At the moment I'm quite curious about multiples of the driver 5th element suggested scattered about the room, or perhaps a 10" version if possible - Assuming a suitable amplifier could be found.
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If size (footprint) is a problem, can you go upwards?
There are several example of 12", often LAB12 based tapped horns that have a small footprint but extend up 1-2m. Tapped Horn Experiments
Using an 8" driver in one of these designs will of course keep the same horn length, but significantly decrease the CSA and therefore the volume.
A well selected 8" car subwoofer in TH (£100-£130) should be able to exceed a 12" sealed in performance over it's given passband. 2 to 2.5 octaves is achievable, so 20-80/100hz should be achievable. With a 8x4 sheet of MDF, costs will be reasonable.
From there you'll need steep DSP and amplifier. DSP you have mentioned, but a simple class D such as a TAS5630 (you may need two channels for dual VC car drivers) and appropriate SMPS will be more than enough power (you will run into excursion limits before power if keeping compact at 20Hz).
Hope this helps.. More options maybe..
(I personally really enjoy the sound of TH, and find them one of the easiest ways to squeeze performance low effort and £)
There are several example of 12", often LAB12 based tapped horns that have a small footprint but extend up 1-2m. Tapped Horn Experiments
Using an 8" driver in one of these designs will of course keep the same horn length, but significantly decrease the CSA and therefore the volume.
A well selected 8" car subwoofer in TH (£100-£130) should be able to exceed a 12" sealed in performance over it's given passband. 2 to 2.5 octaves is achievable, so 20-80/100hz should be achievable. With a 8x4 sheet of MDF, costs will be reasonable.
From there you'll need steep DSP and amplifier. DSP you have mentioned, but a simple class D such as a TAS5630 (you may need two channels for dual VC car drivers) and appropriate SMPS will be more than enough power (you will run into excursion limits before power if keeping compact at 20Hz).
Hope this helps.. More options maybe..
(I personally really enjoy the sound of TH, and find them one of the easiest ways to squeeze performance low effort and £)
Couple of other notes, after reading backwards..
Second hand subs are good value IMO. I have owned a few REL subs and being sealed and having a large amount of twiddly bits, integrate well for some additional depth.
Don't think that DSP / DRC will save you from bass chaos. Being lucky with your room / flexible with placement / multiple subs / happy to heavily acoustically treat are your main options!
Second hand subs are good value IMO. I have owned a few REL subs and being sealed and having a large amount of twiddly bits, integrate well for some additional depth.
Don't think that DSP / DRC will save you from bass chaos. Being lucky with your room / flexible with placement / multiple subs / happy to heavily acoustically treat are your main options!
erokelvin99 Thanks for your post.
I'm not sure about going upwards, Id's not something I'd considered! I think from memory, being miles away from home right now, it's the sort of thing that wouldn't fit the room very well - but I am quite like the idea of a tapered horn maze inside a cabinet. There's something rather mystical about them (ie i've never heard one and can't understand how they work!) and I'd love to get my head around the concept.
"Don't think that DSP / DRC will save you from bass chaos. Being lucky with your room / flexible with placement / multiple subs / happy to heavily acoustically treat are your main options!" I suspect I was very lucky with my main system. yes though, on this secondary system I'm prepared to do battle - but a good starting point would be nice. Of all these tools, multiple subs seems the most fun.
I'm not sure about going upwards, Id's not something I'd considered! I think from memory, being miles away from home right now, it's the sort of thing that wouldn't fit the room very well - but I am quite like the idea of a tapered horn maze inside a cabinet. There's something rather mystical about them (ie i've never heard one and can't understand how they work!) and I'd love to get my head around the concept.
"Don't think that DSP / DRC will save you from bass chaos. Being lucky with your room / flexible with placement / multiple subs / happy to heavily acoustically treat are your main options!" I suspect I was very lucky with my main system. yes though, on this secondary system I'm prepared to do battle - but a good starting point would be nice. Of all these tools, multiple subs seems the most fun.
How loud do you wanna go?
In my opinion, plate amps are so difficult to get hold of here in the UK (the USA has Parts Express selling Dayton plate amps, among others) that you might as well just pick and active sub and go with it. Something like an older model REL sub will probably do you just fine.
If you're happy with external power amps, the Behringer NX series is worth a look. Combine with a couple of sealed 10"s, and you're well on your way.
FWIW, with room gain, I'm getting down to 10Hz with a pair of sealed 8"s. They don't get loud enough to feel those frequencies, though.
Chris
In my opinion, plate amps are so difficult to get hold of here in the UK (the USA has Parts Express selling Dayton plate amps, among others) that you might as well just pick and active sub and go with it. Something like an older model REL sub will probably do you just fine.
If you're happy with external power amps, the Behringer NX series is worth a look. Combine with a couple of sealed 10"s, and you're well on your way.
FWIW, with room gain, I'm getting down to 10Hz with a pair of sealed 8"s. They don't get loud enough to feel those frequencies, though.
Chris
If you paint match with room, it can almost be like it isn't there ;-).
Other options include:
Tactile shakers. In the 10-40hz band especially I continue to be surprised with how much they fill out, or fool your body into some impressively low notes. Better for HT but an option for music.
Under couch subwoofer (placement may be a problem.)
Multiple subs w/ a single high power amplifier works well to keep the cost down.
Other options include:
Tactile shakers. In the 10-40hz band especially I continue to be surprised with how much they fill out, or fool your body into some impressively low notes. Better for HT but an option for music.
Under couch subwoofer (placement may be a problem.)
Multiple subs w/ a single high power amplifier works well to keep the cost down.
You only need a single DSP out channel still (and advised, otherwise you can have two different signals to each VC = bad). But depending on how the impedance works out, it may work better to match to two amplifier channels.
How loud? Hard to describe. Loud enough to be a little bit of fun, but really - not veryloud. Enough to annoy neighbours, but nowhere near risking hearing damage. I would like to feel the lows a little, but accept I'm not going to be shaken to my core..
That's interesting stuff. I'd rather like a pair (or trio) of sealed 10"s. And yes, I'm feeling the same way about plate amps here in the UK. I suspect a rack mounted power amp may get more consideration than I was originally willing to give it.
It's a bedroom and under-bed space is very limited. and Tactile shakers I'm afraid aren't my thing
Ahh, good. That aligns with my original suspicions, so it's handy to know. Thanks.
Hmmm... At the moment I'd guess a couple 12" would work, you'll get expenses for wood and amps as well, so cannot get something super pricey if you want to stay below 400 quid.
I'd still recommend two Beyma 12BR70 in about 60 liters each, sealed boxes, a personal favourite.
The Beyma 12BR70 are £65 each from bluearan, I'd seriously consider the Crown XLS1002 DriveCore to go with, it has DSP built in, cost is 300£ well worth it IMO. If you already have DSP the IMG Stage Line STA-400D is a valid option at 285£.
Materials and other stuff will probably also cost a bit, it's ok to use 15mm ply if you want to save a bit on that, can even use poplar if you want which is cheaper than birch. But please do not go the route of OSB and/or MDF, then it's probably just as well to go with free particle board from a dumpster dive and get some wood-style vinyl to clad it with.
You'll get good subs that can play fairly well if you get two, I don't think you need very much more than that in a normal home (look who's talking...6x15"...).
The very good SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6 can be tuned to 19Hz in a 250L vented case. It won't go that low full power, but 75w gives 106dB in theory (in reality a bit lower) and should be enough for a normal room to shake the building.
The same driver in a 75L sealed box will give a good response until 23Hz without eq in room btw, if that is low enough for you you can do a simple (but well braced) sealed box with it. The driver is for sale in the UK at Falcon acoustics for 153£
For plate amps, Hypex is hard to beat for me. I'm not a fan of plate amps, but hypex for subwoofers is good. A Hypex FA251 would fit this driver and is about 270€ here in Continental Europe. I'm sure you could find it also in the UK, or import it (untill the end of the year there is no import tax yet).
The same driver in a 75L sealed box will give a good response until 23Hz without eq in room btw, if that is low enough for you you can do a simple (but well braced) sealed box with it. The driver is for sale in the UK at Falcon acoustics for 153£
For plate amps, Hypex is hard to beat for me. I'm not a fan of plate amps, but hypex for subwoofers is good. A Hypex FA251 would fit this driver and is about 270€ here in Continental Europe. I'm sure you could find it also in the UK, or import it (untill the end of the year there is no import tax yet).
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Not a bad suggestion, but perhaps it's a bit pricey.
Hypex FA251 is basically double price since it's a 1 channel amp. The STA-400D is a two channel Hypex amp for more or less the same cost, actually cheaper, because of shipping and other expenses.
He can get two Beyma 12BR70 for the cost of one SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6.
Hypex FA251 is basically double price since it's a 1 channel amp. The STA-400D is a two channel Hypex amp for more or less the same cost, actually cheaper, because of shipping and other expenses.
He can get two Beyma 12BR70 for the cost of one SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6.