Thanks for the hint! Indeed, this one performs as the Lab12 (see attached) and is cheaper. Will look into sourcing options.
TBTL: isn't this a moot point as both drivers can be driven by more than 50W? Regardless of the amp I choose I will get about 4dB additional SPL with the Lab12
Attachments
Why not use more of what you already have? They all have to work togather. WHG
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You should not mix drivers putting out the same frequencies. It will not only sound less good but you also risk blowing drivers if you use them full power.
Also never put sub-woofers in series as this will magnify the little differences of the 2 woofers. (even 2 woofers of the same model are not 100% the same) JBL warns for this in their sub-woofer manuals.
Unless the sub-woofers are at least 20m a part and you keep the output levels/volume low, this is IMO a bad idea. Putting them in a square formation is even worse.
To make them not work against each other and themselves, put them indoors all together in a corner or at least in front of a wall. Outdoors put them all together just off the middle in between the tops.
To prevent phase problems/cancellations/power alleys, the rule is to place them closer then 1/8th or more then 1 wavelength of the frequencies they put out to walls and double these distances to each other.
This way the bass will be louder, tighter, reach a lot further (have more throw
) and you will feel it.Please spread the word after trying and experiencing this yourself. Basic physics backs this up.
//edit: many car woofers like to be put in sealed boxes. A JBL GTO 1214 sounds and performs similar to a LAB12 in a 25 liter sealed box. (I have both and tested this yesterday) But it's half the price and weight and where I live I can get them easy and cheap used.
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Do Not Mix
If you were starting from scratch, exploration of lower price alternatives would be a viable option. Give the exemplary performance you should be getting from what you have, $775 usd to add two more drivers including amplifier seems reasonable, as the alternatives, while providing additional output, will degrade this level of performance only achievable by servo control. WHG
If you were starting from scratch, exploration of lower price alternatives would be a viable option. Give the exemplary performance you should be getting from what you have, $775 usd to add two more drivers including amplifier seems reasonable, as the alternatives, while providing additional output, will degrade this level of performance only achievable by servo control. WHG
Would agree if the price was $775 as you say. But it's not. Each DS1200 plus A370PEQ is $639. Getting it home will total about $1200. For two subs...$2400...
Take the HSU drivers and plate amp as examples: $80 for the driver plus $100 for the amp, so $180 each. Say $360 to have it home, and $720 for two units.
So $2400 vs $720...ballpark.
Thus in my initial post I asked about one Rythmik vs two lower quality units to be added.
That's not really what experienced users tell me, nor what Earl Geddes reports. I exchanged with an Audiogon member who had a high quality sub, added 4 DIY boxes with cheap drivers and even 2 boxes sealed and 2 ported, and reports very important improvement. Geddes also says mixing subs is not detrimental when you individually adjust the four and all play mono, provided the subs aren't being pushed hard - which certainly wouldn't be the case with 4x 12" subs in my living room.
Thanks for the tip. Wasn't planning on series connection though.
Unless the sub-woofers are at least 20m a part and you keep the output levels/volume low, this is IMO a bad idea. Putting them in a square formation is even worse.
To make them not work against each other and themselves, put them indoors all together in a corner or at least in front of a wall. Outdoors put them all together just off the middle in between the tops.
To prevent phase problems/cancellations/power alleys, the rule is to place them closer then 1/8th or more then 1 wavelength of the frequencies they put out to walls and double these distances to each other.
This way the bass will be louder, tighter, reach a lot further (have more throw
Please spread the word after trying and experiencing this yourself. Basic physics backs this up.
You might want to read Earl Geddes work, or Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction.
Sufficiently Equivalent
This should still sufficiently match what you have for the application you describe.
"Dual driver kit with two DS1200 drivers and one HX580-12S amplifier up to 4.8 cu ft $779"
Note that each driver should be enclosed by a separate back chamber.
The amplifier unit has two amp modules sharing a common power supply.
WHG
This should still sufficiently match what you have for the application you describe.
"Dual driver kit with two DS1200 drivers and one HX580-12S amplifier up to 4.8 cu ft $779"
Note that each driver should be enclosed by a separate back chamber.
The amplifier unit has two amp modules sharing a common power supply.
WHG
Excellent point!!! I had not seen the HX580 amp with the dual driver option and that price!!
Still about twice the price of the HSU combos, but now we are talking about a lot smaller difference. Will look further into these dual units. Could build it as one bigger box with opposed drivers (maybe too large a box for the decor), or make two boxes if the servo connection can be extended 8ft.
Thanks for pointing me to this!
Help
Contact Brian Ding owner/founder of Rythmik Audio at
Contact Rythmik Audio Just complete the form here.
BTW Brian holds a PHD in Electrical Engineering from USC and he normally responds to inquires on his website. He should be able to answer your questions concerning system expansion and assist in delivering kit product to you in Argentina at minimum cost. Good luck. WHG
Contact Brian Ding owner/founder of Rythmik Audio at
Contact Rythmik Audio Just complete the form here.
BTW Brian holds a PHD in Electrical Engineering from USC and he normally responds to inquires on his website. He should be able to answer your questions concerning system expansion and assist in delivering kit product to you in Argentina at minimum cost. Good luck. WHG
In my previous post I wrote that I had compared the "JBL GTO 1214" to the LAB12 but that had to be "JBL GTO 1204" but those are also very similar. Infinity 1260W 1262W (also Harman group) also seem to be very similar.
Gedlee's main recommendation is to put 1 woofer in a corner and not much for the other 2. The one in the corner will dominate over the other 2 because of it's corner gain.
Physics don't change. So if it doesn't work outdoors, you can't fix it with putting walls and a ceiling around it.
If it does not work in a large room why would is magically work in a smaller one?
In a piece of JBL they simulated a room with 5000 subs and that also works great. But only because the closest coupled subs are dominant as they are the closest and thus loudest.
You can also put just 1 subwoofer at your listening position and it will sound great; the most direct sound.
By putting the subs in a corner you eliminated many early reflections by making them so small that they add to the main pressure wave. Will get more direct (in phase) sound and will hit your whole body at once. People who dance will get this much easier. Next time you see a live band without sound reinforcement for the drums, try to feel the bass instead of listening to it.
But more important then theory is experience: I tried it myself.
As soon as sound levels go up I miss the impact of the bass and the feeling is wrong or not there. It feels less real and there is a massive variation in bass which you notice best when you walk around the room.
You might not be able to locate bass direction by ear but you can feel it with your body, especially your belly. Having a subwoofer behind the listening position just feels wrong.
The subwoofers in a corner at a wall couple best with the wall if the drivers is as close as possible to them. So especially with large subs, better not put them with their back facing the wall as the distance from driver to wall and back is already to large. So put them with 1 side to a wall and the driver facing the other wall or point the drivers straight into the corner.
I read most of their work and respect them highly but don't agree with this.
Gedlee's main recommendation is to put 1 woofer in a corner and not much for the other 2. The one in the corner will dominate over the other 2 because of it's corner gain.
Physics don't change. So if it doesn't work outdoors, you can't fix it with putting walls and a ceiling around it.
If it does not work in a large room why would is magically work in a smaller one?
In a piece of JBL they simulated a room with 5000 subs and that also works great. But only because the closest coupled subs are dominant as they are the closest and thus loudest.
You can also put just 1 subwoofer at your listening position and it will sound great; the most direct sound.
By putting the subs in a corner you eliminated many early reflections by making them so small that they add to the main pressure wave. Will get more direct (in phase) sound and will hit your whole body at once. People who dance will get this much easier. Next time you see a live band without sound reinforcement for the drums, try to feel the bass instead of listening to it.
But more important then theory is experience: I tried it myself.
As soon as sound levels go up I miss the impact of the bass and the feeling is wrong or not there. It feels less real and there is a massive variation in bass which you notice best when you walk around the room.
You might not be able to locate bass direction by ear but you can feel it with your body, especially your belly. Having a subwoofer behind the listening position just feels wrong.
The subwoofers in a corner at a wall couple best with the wall if the drivers is as close as possible to them. So especially with large subs, better not put them with their back facing the wall as the distance from driver to wall and back is already to large. So put them with 1 side to a wall and the driver facing the other wall or point the drivers straight into the corner.
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Yeap. I've exchanged with Brian for the last 8 or 9 years, since I started looking into his kits. Interestingly, he talked me into a couple of his 12" (DS1200) vs a couple of his 15". I wrote him a while back about my idea of assembling a DBA and he only suggested DS1204 (smaller sealed cabinet vs DS1200) and A370PEQ, but didn't mention the HX580-12S. I sent him an email asking about it. I hope it works!
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