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B&C 21SW152 clone
B&C 21SW152 clone
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Old 17th June 2019, 11:27 PM   #1
ojedadavid is offline ojedadavid
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Default B&C 21SW152 clone

[url=http://www.hwspeaker.com/html[/url]
21NDS151U1 Subwoofer 21 inchs

Hello, i would like your opinion, on this.
I am currently using inuke 6000 dsp with
2 Dayton 18PA465 subwoofers, they sound really good.
Using them outdoors. on vented 7cu ft cabs.
But i would like more headroom.
I found these SW152 clones, $400 shipped each, they dont look that bad.


I privously had 4 Dayton PA465 18s, but sold 2 of them.
Now i regret i sold them, they are discontinued.
I would just had used 4 and be fine.

and could used the PRV 18ws2200 which is pretty much the same
as the dayton PA465. They are $199 on Parts express.

Which option is the best

1) 2 dayton PA465 + 2 PRV 18WS2200
2) 2 SW152 clone

Both on same inuke, 4ohm stereo.
Wouldnt discard buying another inuke 6000.
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Old 17th June 2019, 11:33 PM   #2
NEO Dan is offline NEO Dan  United States
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21NDS151U1 Subwoofer 21 inchs - NEODYMIUM SUBWOOFER TRANSDUCERS - hiwell speaker

You go first, measuring is believing.
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Old 18th June 2019, 12:33 AM   #3
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojedadavid View Post
[...] 2 Dayton 18PA465 subwoofers [...]

But i would like more headroom.

[...]

and could used the PRV 18ws2200 which is pretty much the same
as the dayton PA465. They are $199 on Parts express.

Which option is the best

1) 2 dayton PA465 + 2 PRV 18WS2200
2) 2 SW152 clone

Both on same inuke, 4ohm stereo.
1. Don't mix different subs! The phase will be different and that will cause more or less cancelling.

2. One of the 21" got 1750 cm² cone surface. Two of the 18" got 2x ~1200 = 2400 cm² cone surface. That means, you lose roughly 30% of cone surface. That's really bad, outdoors that's exactly what counts, cone surface. That gives you much less headroom instead of more!

3. Don't buy noname drivers from china which aren't sold anymore in a year. Why? Not because they might be bad. Okay, that may or may not be the case.. anyway. No, if you kill one, there are no recone kits, you are unable to get a replacement which usually means you have to throw the enclosure away too and a single one remaining is practically useless for you.

The best would be to buy more 18" (maybe 6) which are not too expensive.
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Last edited by ICG; 18th June 2019 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 18th June 2019, 01:03 AM   #4
ojedadavid is offline ojedadavid
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[QUOTE=ICG;5826764]1. Don't mix different subs! The phase will be different and that will cause more or less cancelling.

do you think mixing dayton 18 PA465 and PRV 18WS2200 is a bad idea?
both are 18 inch driver, and they look pretty much the same.
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Old 18th June 2019, 03:02 AM   #5
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ojedadavid View Post
do you think mixing dayton 18 PA465 and PRV 18WS2200 is a bad idea?
both are 18 inch driver, and they look pretty much the same.
I don't know if the parameters of the driver are that different. I'll look into it.

E: Yes, it would be a very bad idea to mix them, the parameters are vastly different.

E2:
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...ifications.pdf
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...ifications.pdf
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Last edited by ICG; 18th June 2019 at 03:09 AM.
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Old 18th June 2019, 09:18 AM   #6
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Lavoce SAN214.50 is apparently $470 and performs well. It has low Qes, high BL^2/Re so should be good in higher order designs:
dB v2
Ricci's Skram Subwoofer & Files - Bass Projects - Data-Bass Forums

however if you are building sealed or bass reflex you may get more output with two 18".
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Old 18th June 2019, 01:06 PM   #7
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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I've had very good luck mixing subs with different drivers, and even different box types...... sealed, reflex, and FLH.

But I always use a crossover at 100Hz and wavelengths are long enough to accommodate phase variations and still provide good summation.
If crossover was higher I can see how different subs might not work so well together.

I also use the same crossover topology...that is, the same electrical LPF to the subs.
This seems to matter the most on the high end of the subs' band-passes, dominating driver/box differences.

On the low end, where the HPF's are in place, it sometimes takes a little juggling to get things right...but the savior is the really huge wavelengths that provide a lot of tuning room.

Bottom line imo, is how well do they sum... how close do they sum to +6dB through the pass-band when measured side by side outdoors, both separately powered.

Indoors? I'd mix drivers/subs in a heartbeat....
The second you put a sub indoors, you've already mixed multiple subs... with all the virtual subs created from room reflections.
This soooo dominates drivers, parameters, even box types etc, ime.

Below is a couple of different subs measured outdoors for an example...
green trace is a really high mass prosound single 18" in a FLH.
Red is a single 18", lower mass, in a bass reflex.
Blue is their summation.
Same linear phase HPF and LPF on both.

First plot is with no EQ on FLH sub or reflex
Second is with EQ on FLH sub to make judging summation easier.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg both comp.JPG (159.2 KB, 280 views)
File Type: jpg both w eq.JPG (159.2 KB, 278 views)
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Old 18th June 2019, 07:26 PM   #8
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
On the low end, where the HPF's are in place, it sometimes takes a little juggling to get things right...but the savior is the really huge wavelengths that provide a lot of tuning room.
The low-cut is an absolutely must-have for PA use anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Bottom line imo, is how well do they sum... how close do they sum to +6dB through the pass-band when measured side by side outdoors, both separately powered.
No, it isn't that easy. You have to compare and look very closely at the excursion. A correct sum does not say how much mechanical and aswell electrical (power) stress is on them. I've seen it several times at some firends event parties, they said "ah, that works suprisingly good" and an hour later half of their mixed subs died. Oversimplifying things isn't helping you at all. You often don't even recognize when the power compression on one of the sub types starts. That's actually the prototype on 'how to fry my subs'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Below is a couple of different subs measured outdoors for an example...
green trace is a really high mass prosound single 18" in a FLH.
Red is a single 18", lower mass, in a bass reflex.
Blue is their summation.
Same linear phase HPF and LPF on both.

First plot is with no EQ on FLH sub or reflex
Second is with EQ on FLH sub to make judging summation easier.
Well, how did you place the subs? How many subs? Just two? Monostack, 2 stacks r+l, tooth-row, end-fire, cardioid? How/where did you measure it?
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Old 19th June 2019, 01:36 AM   #9
Matthew Morgan J is offline Matthew Morgan J  United States
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The Chinese 21" clone is not equivalent to the 21SW152, not even close at least when it comes to motor force (especially after you figure in the Lossy Inductance) ....

If we are to believe their published parameters the Chinese 21" isn't even as strong as a 21DS115, so is a far cry from a 21SW152 ..

That Chinese neo motor would be ok on an 18" cone, and awesome on a 15" cone ...
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Old 19th June 2019, 07:08 AM   #10
TBTL is offline TBTL  Germany
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Could you please explain? I thought motor force scales to BL^2 / Re.

Chinese 21NDS151U1: BL = 32 Tm, Re = 3.6 ohms --> BL^2 / Re = 284 T^2*m^2/ohm
B&C 21SW152 4 ohm version: BL = 32.5 Tm, Re = 3.3 ohms. --> BL^2 / Re = 320 T^2*m^2/ohm
B&C 21SW152 8 ohm version: BL = 39 Tm, Re = 6.0 ohms. --> BL^2 / Re = 254 T^2*m^2/ohm

Then the Chinese motor appears to be similar to the B&C.

The Chinese woofers do not look like clones to me. Their magnets look unlike the B&C woofers except the 21IPAL, but then the basket is different. The pole plate also is different. If the woofers really are clones, I would not buy them. That would be sending money to thieves instead of to the company that put effort in designing them.

Last edited by TBTL; 19th June 2019 at 07:25 AM.
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