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Old 29th July 2019, 11:27 PM   #91
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Location: I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
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Originally Posted by Brian Steele View Post
Clearly you have no idea what "linearity" means.
If you still instinst on that distortion numbers, you clearly have no grasp at all what distortion looks like in the sub range. Even less what it does at a BP.

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Originally Posted by Brian Steele View Post
Maybe most of YOUR subwoofers are like that, LOL. This one measures differently .
Either it does measure 'differntely' but got no spl at all or you've got no grasp at measuring at all. Really, measure ANY sub at the power you've claimed you've measured you sub and you'll realize it's absoultely sheer imposible to get your claims at anything below a 28" sub or you are plain delusional about your own 'wonder' sub.

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I've both measured and posted the measurements here. It's very obvious you either don't know what you're talking about, or you're trolling. I'm going with the latter for now. Stay off my thread from now on please. Your posts are adding no value to the content.
You simply don't even fathom how far off you are with your claims. What you claim that's not even physical possible with such a driver of that size! I know why you want me off of your thread, but sorry, I won't shut up because your claims are so dead wrong!
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Old 29th July 2019, 11:47 PM   #92
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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Originally Posted by ICG View Post
If you still instinst on that distortion numbers, you clearly have no grasp at all what distortion looks like in the sub range. Even less what it does at a BP.
ROFL, well maybe I've built the "bumblebee" of subwoofers then.

BTW, it continues to perform well in its designed role, and my brother continues to be impressed with the results.

Keep posting however if it makes you feel any better.
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Old 30th July 2019, 12:02 AM   #93
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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ROFL, well maybe I've built the "bumblebee" of subwoofers then.
I'll opt to you don't know how to measure it. Or you'd just claimed a valute you've reasoned would be 'great'.

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BTW, it continues to perform well in its designed role, and my brother continues to be impressed with the results.
As I already said, the human ear is quite insensitve to distorion in the sub range. That means, it does not contradict 'impressive' results, as these are neither actually measured nor compared to the performance of other subs. Sure, I do not deny they do what they're supposed to do at all. Neither do I doubt the ppl in the bar like how it sounds. I do, however, doubt your 'measurements' because that numbers are just delusional, such BP subs are typical at 30-50% THD at your claimed frequency and power/spl figures. If you stick to your figures, send the data in to ANY speaker manufacturers, they'll be absolutely happy to get their hands on it. You'd make millions, no, BILLIONS by selling that sub!

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Keep posting however if it makes you feel any better.
It does not. In fact, it's rather sad to prove someone delusional to be wrong. There are no 'winners', everyone loses facing the reality.
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Old 30th July 2019, 12:34 AM   #94
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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I've never reported a single post on diyaudio in my life, but this is ridiculous. Chill out dude.
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Old 30th July 2019, 12:36 AM   #95
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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Some quick pictures, taken of the sub in operation.

First one with the sub located under the bar (yes, yes, yes, not the ideal location - I wanted to put it in a corner to get the best results, but the bar is small, they'd already wired up that spot for a subwoofer, and there were no corners available!). Sigh - that's the kind of thing that happens when the audio guy is called in AFTER the bar is built to give advice and produce solutions. Well at least the subwoofer's bandpass arrangement makes sure that no-one can easily throw a drink on the driver (unless of course they throw said drink through one of the vents).

The second one shows the amps and DSP-408 hooked up. Sort of a "temporary" install, as they were going to do some cleanup work at the bar and I didn't want to do anything really permanent before that happened. If you know the size of the DSP-408, you'd know that these amps are pretty tiny. Dust appears to be an issue. In the past, I've made plastic inserts to protect important equipment input/output ports from dust (or just taped them up) - looks like I'll have to do so for that DSP-408.
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File Type: jpg 20190725_221951.jpg (181.4 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg 20190725_221919.jpg (157.9 KB, 72 views)
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Old 30th July 2019, 01:45 AM   #96
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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I've never reported a single post on diyaudio in my life, but this is ridiculous. Chill out dude.
As if you'd be the one who'd have seen the return of Jesus. Look at ANY measurements of woofers or subwoofers, from ANY source at 1 or even 5W and you know what he claims is BS. No matter if you prefer B.S. or don't like him, if you've ever seen any measurements of subwoofers, you know it's plain and simple BS.

Here's a measurement of a Wavecor Subwoofer (SW280WA01), with the same Xmax as his driver, which exceeds 1% distortion at 100Hz at just one single Watt!. And 5% at 30 Hz. Again, at just a single one Watt.
You want to report me? Yes, please do so, but please give a prove that what I said is wrong and post a measurement at SEVENTY WATT of ANY BP subwoofer with a single 10" driver with 10% or less THD at 30 Hz and 70 Watt!

Rebuilding the Enigma...-sw280wa01-jpg
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Old 30th July 2019, 02:27 AM   #97
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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Originally Posted by ICG View Post
You want to report me? Yes, please do so, but please give a prove that what I said is wrong and post a measurement at SEVENTY WATT of ANY BP subwoofer with a single 10" driver with 10% or less THD at 30 Hz and 70 Watt!
When I referred to "10%", I was referring to the subwoofer's useable PASSBAND, which is about 38 Hz up to about 115 Hz, going by the -3dB points (some people go by -6dB points, others by -10dB points, I prefer not to engage in that sort of marketing-speak).

Go back to my previous posts and you'll see that I always make a point of referring to the passband when quoting the distortion figures for the subwoofer. 30 Hz is BELOW the subwoofer's passband. Distortion there is higher of course at 70W, hence the use of the HP filter that I referred to in Post #87.

Now, if you have a problem with the measured distortion that I've quoted for the subwoofer in its passband, then take it up with the creators of REW, the software I use for measurement purposes. Because the results of the measurements are pretty clear on that subject and there's not much you can get wrong in the measurement process.

BTW, that graph you provided really doesn't prove much, because there was no mention of what alignment (if any) the driver was used in for that measurement, and you know that will have a significant impact on the measured distortion.
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Old 30th July 2019, 03:30 AM   #98
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Originally Posted by Brian Steele View Post
When I referred to "10%", I was referring to the subwoofer's useable PASSBAND, which is about 38 Hz up to about 115 Hz, going by the -3dB points (some people go by -6dB points, others by -10dB points, I prefer not to engage in that sort of marketing-speak).
You've definitely said something different before. But that does not matter because also at 38 or even 50Hz that's simply not physically possible.

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Now, if you have a problem with the measured distortion that I've quoted for the subwoofer in its passband, then take it up with the creators of REW, the software I use for measurement purposes. Because the results of the measurements are pretty clear on that subject and there's not much you can get wrong in the measurement process.
As I already said, that measurement is simply not possible. It does not matter if it's because of your inability to conduct a proper measurement or because your measurement chain does not work (how did you not notice that previously?!). And for faults in the measurements, it always shows up as higher distortion, not lower, which you can re-read in the REW help.

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BTW, that graph you provided really doesn't prove much, because there was no mention of what alignment (if any) the driver was used in for that measurement, and you know that will have a significant impact on the measured distortion.
It was in a standard baffle, free air measurement. A BP enclosure would only introduce more distortions. And Hobby Hifi magazines Dipl.-Ing. Bernd Timmermanns (V.i.S.d.P.) is a renowned technician and does the magazines since ~25 years (or even longer, he's at the 100th issue of his 2-monthly magazine and was measuring and publishing in other magazines before). A BP would only increase the distortion anyway.
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Old 30th July 2019, 04:40 AM   #99
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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Originally Posted by ICG View Post
You've definitely said something different before.
Now you're presuming to tell me what I did or didn't say. Go back through my posts on this thread and you'll see that almost every time I referred to the Enigma's distortion I also referred to its passband. I even POSTED a graph that shows the distortion for the subwoofer rising above 10% at frequencies lower than its passband. One of the images even has the cursor at 30 Hz, showing 30% THD. Does your Internet browser show pictures as well as text?

BTW, I've detailed the measurement process in Post #87. See if you see anything in the process that would produce distortion measurements that are LOWER than what the subwoofer actually produces. The only thing that sticks out at me is perhaps the sweep length (unfortunately I didn't record it, but I believe that I used 512K long test signals - REW suggests using 1M long test signals as shorter ones apparently result in less accurate harmonic information in the resulting distortion graph). OTOH, I don't run the sweep all the way to 20kHz, but usually stop at 2kHz or lower, so even though the sweep is shorter, it should contain more information about the covered spectrum. I may have to run another test with different test signal lengths to see how much of a difference that actually makes at bass frequencies.

As mentioned previously, the bandpass alignment will filter any distortion produced by the driver, so you might actually see reduced, not increased, distortion results, in its passband. If, for example, the acoustic filter results in a response that's cut 3dB at 115 Hz, it doesn't care if the driver was trying to produce a 115 Hz signal, or that 115 Hz was 2nd HD from a 67.5 Hz signal that the driver was trying to produce. The level of that filtering will depend on the width of the passband (one of the reasons why I don't like wide-bandwith bandpass designs that much), and of course the fundamental frequency that it's trying to produce. For this particular build, 2nd HD from a 40 Hz tone will not be impacted by the acoustic filter (because at 80 Hz it will still be in the passband), but 2nd HD from a 80 Hz tone certainly will be. 3rd HD (and higher) from a 40 Hz tone will also be reduced in level by the acoustic filter. You can actually see this distortion-filtering effect in the distortion curves that I added to this thread - look at the shapes of the curves and compare them to the subwoofer's HP cutoff around 115 Hz.
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Old 30th July 2019, 05:53 PM   #100
Josh Ricci is offline Josh Ricci  United States
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Seriously, most subwoofers pass the 10% distortion below 5W @30Hz. Yours isn't an exception. It is very obvious you've never measured distortion on a subwoofer.
Please post some of your measurements of subwoofers here to add context to your claims.


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But that does not matter because also at 38 or even 50Hz that's simply not physically possible.
This statement is factually incorrect.
It is possible. Easily so.
You claimed something is impossible in the face of clear evidence to the contrary and then claimed the evidence is suspect due to user error. This seems like blatant trolling of the OP to me.

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It was in a standard baffle, free air measurement. A BP enclosure would only introduce more distortions.
This statement is also false. This statement would require a large number of qualifiers to even be considered with any seriousness.

It is NEVER that simple.
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