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Looking for design brilliance w/ Dayton PA465S-8's!
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Old 20th March 2019, 11:40 PM   #1
Sublimacon is offline Sublimacon  United States
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Default Looking for design brilliance w/ Dayton PA465S-8's!

Hi everyone,

Just to clarify my Forum name, I am not a subwoofer narcissist. Its a joke (yahoo mail handel) from the early 90's about subliminal media content.

Now that we got that out of the way:
I bit the bullet and grabbed four of the $120 clearance Dayton PA465S-8's. BTW, they're all gone now - sold out.

I had forgotten --facepalm-- about to drastic (for the worse) T/S spec shift - Doh! Anyway, at that price I still think they were a steal, even with the weak-sause magnet.

I currently have two home-brew double 18 cabs. I cnc'ed auraco 3/4" for the endcaps, and used hvy-dty 36" sonotube for the main portion of the cabs.

Now wait a minute before you cringe - it gets worse!
- - - - They're loaded with Peavey BW 18's - OK you can wretch now! Got eight of those drivers used in good condition for $43ea, hard to pass up a deal like that.

Back to the dayton's, with a Qts: 0.57 I'm obviously not going to have good luck loading two of them in 10cubed cabs. They real work best in BR 10cubes each.

So what are my best options for these drivers? Large-by-huge BR, ML-TTL, some variant of quart-wave alignment, maybe isobaric and power 'em with a small nuclear reactor? My current home-brews weigh <100Lbs each! Which means I can self-load these into my pickup bed.

As much as I drool over the Tapped Horn designs, I don't anticipate having roadies nor a small crane for loadouts. To be honest, I'm have a bit of buyers remorse at this point - if the Dayton's only had the original Qts spec, they would of been awesome.

So, trying not kiss too much butt on my first post here, but - I really think there are some cutting edge DIY designers who contribute to this wedsite! You guys continuously push the envelope, I believe surpassing the OEM's many times. I'm rather surprised Danley/Harmon Group/Etc hasn't been sending head-hunters this way for years!

What I'm trying to do with these drivers is load them into manageable cabs. 35-120Hz +/-3dB, reach XMax at or below their 1KWatt RMS (god damned power sponges they are). Not have bandpass like mudfest group-delay #'s, and (no offense intended) 180Lbs cube shaped bricks that only a sumo-wrestler could lift.

Thank you in advance for your input!
Chris.

Last edited by Sublimacon; 20th March 2019 at 11:43 PM. Reason: Forgot things.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:16 AM   #2
Top Shelf is offline Top Shelf  Canada
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By what you've said maybe you should sell them off for price paid and invest in some other units. Save the headache.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:38 AM   #3
Sublimacon is offline Sublimacon  United States
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Top Shelf,

That is a thought that's crossed my mind.
I was originally eye-balling the PAL12 design, thinking about them loaded with Skar DDX12's for a small footprint.

I think impulse-purchase fever got the best of me. I mean the Dayton's had a msrp of somthing like $299, and typically sold for around two hundred USD. The did sell a bunch of them in just a few days on clearance.

I realise I'm not going to get my cake and eat it too with these dayton drivers. But with the collective brain-power held within this website, it's my hope I can still implement them in a viable portable design?

Last edited by Sublimacon; 21st March 2019 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 21st March 2019, 12:46 AM   #4
Sublimacon is offline Sublimacon  United States
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Oh and one other data-point, the only gigs I do are for free(IE, no pay). I'm a working class slob with a wife/2 kids/morgage, and very little play money. So all of the aewsome Ferrari like Euro drivers or out of my economic reach - sadly!

As bad as I've painted the picture for the dayton drivers, they're still miles better than the BW Peaveys!
They have 2x+ the XMax, 3x the power handling, and unfortunately about the same'ish Qtc.
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Old 21st March 2019, 05:39 PM   #5
Top Shelf is offline Top Shelf  Canada
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Do you have any modelling programs downloaded? Try hornresponse and winisd. Input the specs for a manageable sized cab and see what it says. Hopefully you can get them down to 7 cu ft. Do you have a dsp unit? I use reflex boxes and have a two wheel dolly cart w big tires to move my cabs.
What type of amps do you use?
I'm supposing you do free techno parties?
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Old 21st March 2019, 07:07 PM   #6
Zwiller is offline Zwiller  United States
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I modeled TONS of things for that driver and it works in most if not all, but the results were ok at best. That definitely cooled me down from grabbing them. I am likely grabbing a pair of the PA385 for $99... That said, PA465 worked decent, so it is doable. I am similar to you but my daughter has some paying DJ gigs so I get. Trust me. Build a TH. I recommend the Keystone. This will likely be a game changer for you. It is a true touring cabinet design (horn) not some prosumer stuff. Mine has a LAB15 in it and it (one!) slayed a prom gig in large gym. I have a small powered sub for smaller gigs. Cool part is, you could upgrade the driver later and then you have some serious firepower.



Dead serious: build some EV style manifolds for the BW. They are a well known replacement. OR do a bunch of DJK PPSL which are 2 driver manifolds. I woulda grabbed them too!
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Old 21st March 2019, 09:48 PM   #7
Sublimacon is offline Sublimacon  United States
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Top Self,

Yeah I've been using WinISD since it first cam out (long time ago).

7-cubed BR is a rather manageable size, but would require some serious wattage with these drivers to reach into the 30Hz region.

My dual 18 cabs (Qty: 2) with the Peavey BW 18's are tuned at 40Hz, to get a reasonable feq curve I'm using HP/LP & 3-bands of parametric Eq. Right around their spec'ed 5mm XMax they're already well past RMS & making odd-order distortion at an alarming rate. On initial testing with sweeps, I smoke a VC (like almost on fire - pour smoke out) in about 10-seconds - - - Oooops!

So I own/use a Peavey IRP3000DSP & a Crest ProLite3.0DSP, so yes on the DSP on about 6KWatt total RMS on 2-Ohms. More than most 15-Amp circuits will tolerate with bass-hvy stuff like EDM.

Yes convertible hand-carts are the ticket.
Sadly no on the EDM gig's, I've tried like hell around Reno NV to organize some free shows to no avail. Everyone that was in that scene locally is burnt-out dealing with the cops. They've conceded to bar/hall/ & permitted day show in parks. Kind of sucks the life out of the party -if you know what I mean. Probably all for the better, as I'm 48YO and look like grandpa at those gigs - even though I really enjoy the music/vibe.

Zwiller,
It's amazing that the stamped-steel low cost PA380 kicks the PA465's butt in models.
The PA465 looks to be a hi-spec knock-off of the B&C TBX units. Unfortunately the Chinese factory must of got some (cheaper) weaker ceramic magnet slugs after the first production run. Thus the Qts shot up to a seal design spec. Which for a FLH would be ok if it weren't for the other specs being meant for BR alignments.

Oh trust me, I'm very well aware of the FLH/TH/BP gain advantages. I've been building & using Pro/HT/Auto subs since the 80's. It just the size/weight of Horns that steers me away from them. Before I made this Dayton impulse-purchase I was (for some time) planing to build 4 or 6 PAL12's. I've spent the coin already - so I guess I'm going to commit to using these 18's.

I think if one of DIYAudio's gurus lands on my post, we might get to working up a ML-TL or some 1/4-wave variant, as these do well with high Qts drives.

Last edited by Sublimacon; 21st March 2019 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Edit
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Old 22nd March 2019, 12:41 AM   #8
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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Isobaric 4th order bandpass, gets down to 40 Hz at almost 100dB/2.83V/1M at 4 Ohms, net box size is about 107 litres (3.8 cu.ft.).

VENT LENGTH AND CSA WILL HAVE TO BE ADJUSTED BASED ON THE PA465's MEASURED SEMI-INDUCTANCE PARAMETERS.
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:25 AM   #9
Sublimacon is offline Sublimacon  United States
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Brian Steele,

Thank you for the Sim.
You would certainly reside in the aforementioned camp-guru!

Man that seems crazy small, like 3.8cubes should be the open chamber vol alone.

Unfortunately, with high-pwr PA drivers I think the sealed chamber on a 4th order BP would prove to be a performance detriment. Pumping EDM material would cause the inside magnet to reach Fry-an-Egg Hot in <30-minutes. Which I could see degrading awesomeness to flabby one-note wonder in that same timespan.

I thought a read a few post of your's stating your mindset was favoring Mass-Loaded Off-set TL's nowadays. I also have read that alignment does pretty well with high'ish Qtc. Any thoughts?
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Old 22nd March 2019, 04:29 AM   #10
Sublimacon is offline Sublimacon  United States
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Also - sorry webpage keeps auto logging me out ever time I type a long post.

I'm good with using the large signal T/S parameters, but the small signal (semi-conductance) stuff is still Blackmagic to me.
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