Hi everyone,
Just to clarify my Forum name, I am not a subwoofer narcissist. Its a joke (yahoo mail handel) from the early 90's about subliminal media content.
Now that we got that out of the way:
I bit the bullet and grabbed four of the $120 clearance Dayton PA465S-8's. BTW, they're all gone now - sold out.
I had forgotten --facepalm-- about to drastic (for the worse) T/S spec shift - Doh! Anyway, at that price I still think they were a steal, even with the weak-sause magnet.
I currently have two home-brew double 18 cabs. I cnc'ed auraco 3/4" for the endcaps, and used hvy-dty 36" sonotube for the main portion of the cabs.
Now wait a minute before you cringe - it gets worse!
- - - - They're loaded with Peavey BW 18's - OK you can wretch now! Got eight of those drivers used in good condition for $43ea, hard to pass up a deal like that.
Back to the dayton's, with a Qts: 0.57 I'm obviously not going to have good luck loading two of them in 10cubed cabs. They real work best in BR 10cubes each.
So what are my best options for these drivers? Large-by-huge BR, ML-TTL, some variant of quart-wave alignment, maybe isobaric and power 'em with a small nuclear reactor? My current home-brews weigh <100Lbs each! Which means I can self-load these into my pickup bed.
As much as I drool over the Tapped Horn designs, I don't anticipate having roadies nor a small crane for loadouts. To be honest, I'm have a bit of buyers remorse at this point - if the Dayton's only had the original Qts spec, they would of been awesome.
So, trying not kiss too much butt on my first post here, but - I really think there are some cutting edge DIY designers who contribute to this wedsite! You guys continuously push the envelope, I believe surpassing the OEM's many times. I'm rather surprised Danley/Harmon Group/Etc hasn't been sending head-hunters this way for years!
What I'm trying to do with these drivers is load them into manageable cabs. 35-120Hz +/-3dB, reach XMax at or below their 1KWatt RMS (god damned power sponges they are). Not have bandpass like mudfest group-delay #'s, and (no offense intended) 180Lbs cube shaped bricks that only a sumo-wrestler could lift.
Thank you in advance for your input!
Chris.
Just to clarify my Forum name, I am not a subwoofer narcissist. Its a joke (yahoo mail handel) from the early 90's about subliminal media content.
Now that we got that out of the way:
I bit the bullet and grabbed four of the $120 clearance Dayton PA465S-8's. BTW, they're all gone now - sold out.
I had forgotten --facepalm-- about to drastic (for the worse) T/S spec shift - Doh! Anyway, at that price I still think they were a steal, even with the weak-sause magnet.
I currently have two home-brew double 18 cabs. I cnc'ed auraco 3/4" for the endcaps, and used hvy-dty 36" sonotube for the main portion of the cabs.
Now wait a minute before you cringe - it gets worse!
- - - - They're loaded with Peavey BW 18's - OK you can wretch now! Got eight of those drivers used in good condition for $43ea, hard to pass up a deal like that.
Back to the dayton's, with a Qts: 0.57 I'm obviously not going to have good luck loading two of them in 10cubed cabs. They real work best in BR 10cubes each.
So what are my best options for these drivers? Large-by-huge BR, ML-TTL, some variant of quart-wave alignment, maybe isobaric and power 'em with a small nuclear reactor? My current home-brews weigh <100Lbs each! Which means I can self-load these into my pickup bed.
As much as I drool over the Tapped Horn designs, I don't anticipate having roadies nor a small crane for loadouts. To be honest, I'm have a bit of buyers remorse at this point - if the Dayton's only had the original Qts spec, they would of been awesome.
So, trying not kiss too much butt on my first post here, but - I really think there are some cutting edge DIY designers who contribute to this wedsite! You guys continuously push the envelope, I believe surpassing the OEM's many times. I'm rather surprised Danley/Harmon Group/Etc hasn't been sending head-hunters this way for years!
What I'm trying to do with these drivers is load them into manageable cabs. 35-120Hz +/-3dB, reach XMax at or below their 1KWatt RMS (god damned power sponges they are). Not have bandpass like mudfest group-delay #'s, and (no offense intended) 180Lbs cube shaped bricks that only a sumo-wrestler could lift.
Thank you in advance for your input!
Chris.
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Top Shelf,
That is a thought that's crossed my mind.
I was originally eye-balling the PAL12 design, thinking about them loaded with Skar DDX12's for a small footprint.
I think impulse-purchase fever got the best of me. I mean the Dayton's had a msrp of somthing like $299, and typically sold for around two hundred USD. The did sell a bunch of them in just a few days on clearance.
I realise I'm not going to get my cake and eat it too with these dayton drivers. But with the collective brain-power held within this website, it's my hope I can still implement them in a viable portable design?
That is a thought that's crossed my mind.
I was originally eye-balling the PAL12 design, thinking about them loaded with Skar DDX12's for a small footprint.
I think impulse-purchase fever got the best of me. I mean the Dayton's had a msrp of somthing like $299, and typically sold for around two hundred USD. The did sell a bunch of them in just a few days on clearance.
I realise I'm not going to get my cake and eat it too with these dayton drivers. But with the collective brain-power held within this website, it's my hope I can still implement them in a viable portable design?
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Oh and one other data-point, the only gigs I do are for free(IE, no pay). I'm a working class slob with a wife/2 kids/morgage, and very little play money. So all of the aewsome Ferrari like Euro drivers or out of my economic reach - sadly!
As bad as I've painted the picture for the dayton drivers, they're still miles better than the BW Peaveys!
They have 2x+ the XMax, 3x the power handling, and unfortunately about the same'ish Qtc.
As bad as I've painted the picture for the dayton drivers, they're still miles better than the BW Peaveys!
They have 2x+ the XMax, 3x the power handling, and unfortunately about the same'ish Qtc.
Do you have any modelling programs downloaded? Try hornresponse and winisd. Input the specs for a manageable sized cab and see what it says. Hopefully you can get them down to 7 cu ft. Do you have a dsp unit? I use reflex boxes and have a two wheel dolly cart w big tires to move my cabs.
What type of amps do you use?
I'm supposing you do free techno parties?
What type of amps do you use?
I'm supposing you do free techno parties?
I modeled TONS of things for that driver and it works in most if not all, but the results were ok at best. That definitely cooled me down from grabbing them. I am likely grabbing a pair of the PA385 for $99... That said, PA465 worked decent, so it is doable. I am similar to you but my daughter has some paying DJ gigs so I get. Trust me. Build a TH. I recommend the Keystone. This will likely be a game changer for you. It is a true touring cabinet design (horn) not some prosumer stuff. Mine has a LAB15 in it and it (one!) slayed a prom gig in large gym. I have a small powered sub for smaller gigs. Cool part is, you could upgrade the driver later and then you have some serious firepower.
Dead serious: build some EV style manifolds for the BW. They are a well known replacement. OR do a bunch of DJK PPSL which are 2 driver manifolds. I woulda grabbed them too!
Dead serious: build some EV style manifolds for the BW. They are a well known replacement. OR do a bunch of DJK PPSL which are 2 driver manifolds. I woulda grabbed them too!
Top Self,
Yeah I've been using WinISD since it first cam out (long time ago).
7-cubed BR is a rather manageable size, but would require some serious wattage with these drivers to reach into the 30Hz region.
My dual 18 cabs (Qty: 2) with the Peavey BW 18's are tuned at 40Hz, to get a reasonable feq curve I'm using HP/LP & 3-bands of parametric Eq. Right around their spec'ed 5mm XMax they're already well past RMS & making odd-order distortion at an alarming rate. On initial testing with sweeps, I smoke a VC (like almost on fire - pour smoke out) in about 10-seconds - - - Oooops!
So I own/use a Peavey IRP3000DSP & a Crest ProLite3.0DSP, so yes on the DSP on about 6KWatt total RMS on 2-Ohms. More than most 15-Amp circuits will tolerate with bass-hvy stuff like EDM.
Yes convertible hand-carts are the ticket.
Sadly no on the EDM gig's, I've tried like hell around Reno NV to organize some free shows to no avail. Everyone that was in that scene locally is burnt-out dealing with the cops. They've conceded to bar/hall/ & permitted day show in parks. Kind of sucks the life out of the party -if you know what I mean. Probably all for the better, as I'm 48YO and look like grandpa at those gigs - even though I really enjoy the music/vibe.
Zwiller,
It's amazing that the stamped-steel low cost PA380 kicks the PA465's butt in models.
The PA465 looks to be a hi-spec knock-off of the B&C TBX units. Unfortunately the Chinese factory must of got some (cheaper) weaker ceramic magnet slugs after the first production run. Thus the Qts shot up to a seal design spec. Which for a FLH would be ok if it weren't for the other specs being meant for BR alignments.
Oh trust me, I'm very well aware of the FLH/TH/BP gain advantages. I've been building & using Pro/HT/Auto subs since the 80's. It just the size/weight of Horns that steers me away from them. Before I made this Dayton impulse-purchase I was (for some time) planing to build 4 or 6 PAL12's. I've spent the coin already - so I guess I'm going to commit to using these 18's.
I think if one of DIYAudio's gurus lands on my post, we might get to working up a ML-TL or some 1/4-wave variant, as these do well with high Qts drives.
Yeah I've been using WinISD since it first cam out (long time ago).
7-cubed BR is a rather manageable size, but would require some serious wattage with these drivers to reach into the 30Hz region.
My dual 18 cabs (Qty: 2) with the Peavey BW 18's are tuned at 40Hz, to get a reasonable feq curve I'm using HP/LP & 3-bands of parametric Eq. Right around their spec'ed 5mm XMax they're already well past RMS & making odd-order distortion at an alarming rate. On initial testing with sweeps, I smoke a VC (like almost on fire - pour smoke out) in about 10-seconds - - - Oooops!
So I own/use a Peavey IRP3000DSP & a Crest ProLite3.0DSP, so yes on the DSP on about 6KWatt total RMS on 2-Ohms. More than most 15-Amp circuits will tolerate with bass-hvy stuff like EDM.
Yes convertible hand-carts are the ticket.
Sadly no on the EDM gig's, I've tried like hell around Reno NV to organize some free shows to no avail. Everyone that was in that scene locally is burnt-out dealing with the cops. They've conceded to bar/hall/ & permitted day show in parks. Kind of sucks the life out of the party -if you know what I mean. Probably all for the better, as I'm 48YO and look like grandpa at those gigs - even though I really enjoy the music/vibe.
Zwiller,
It's amazing that the stamped-steel low cost PA380 kicks the PA465's butt in models.
The PA465 looks to be a hi-spec knock-off of the B&C TBX units. Unfortunately the Chinese factory must of got some (cheaper) weaker ceramic magnet slugs after the first production run. Thus the Qts shot up to a seal design spec. Which for a FLH would be ok if it weren't for the other specs being meant for BR alignments.
Oh trust me, I'm very well aware of the FLH/TH/BP gain advantages. I've been building & using Pro/HT/Auto subs since the 80's. It just the size/weight of Horns that steers me away from them. Before I made this Dayton impulse-purchase I was (for some time) planing to build 4 or 6 PAL12's. I've spent the coin already - so I guess I'm going to commit to using these 18's.
I think if one of DIYAudio's gurus lands on my post, we might get to working up a ML-TL or some 1/4-wave variant, as these do well with high Qts drives.
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Brian Steele,
Thank you for the Sim.
You would certainly reside in the aforementioned camp-guru!
Man that seems crazy small, like 3.8cubes should be the open chamber vol alone.
Unfortunately, with high-pwr PA drivers I think the sealed chamber on a 4th order BP would prove to be a performance detriment. Pumping EDM material would cause the inside magnet to reach Fry-an-Egg Hot in <30-minutes. Which I could see degrading awesomeness to flabby one-note wonder in that same timespan.
I thought a read a few post of your's stating your mindset was favoring Mass-Loaded Off-set TL's nowadays. I also have read that alignment does pretty well with high'ish Qtc. Any thoughts?
Thank you for the Sim.
You would certainly reside in the aforementioned camp-guru!
Man that seems crazy small, like 3.8cubes should be the open chamber vol alone.
Unfortunately, with high-pwr PA drivers I think the sealed chamber on a 4th order BP would prove to be a performance detriment. Pumping EDM material would cause the inside magnet to reach Fry-an-Egg Hot in <30-minutes. Which I could see degrading awesomeness to flabby one-note wonder in that same timespan.
I thought a read a few post of your's stating your mindset was favoring Mass-Loaded Off-set TL's nowadays. I also have read that alignment does pretty well with high'ish Qtc. Any thoughts?
Just a quick FWIW, I recently did a custom design with 2x 18"s, where Qts was about 0.5. I ended up with a 4th order bandpass. Flat response 40-100Hz-ish, and SPL capability to make you smile, although it did take a bridged Powersoft T602 to get there.
Since I sold the design, I can't share it here. IIRC it was something like 400L external. I could move it by myself when it had wheels on the back.
Chris
Since I sold the design, I can't share it here. IIRC it was something like 400L external. I could move it by myself when it had wheels on the back.
Chris
Well, you could go with a magnet-out single-driver 4th order BP, but the net box size will increase (219L for this option). Vent will be larger, but it will be easier to go with dual-vent magnet-out design, which will assist with cooling.
A basic 30 Hz offset TL with the same driver looks ok, but that's before semi-inductance is taken into consideration (second image). Box size also works out to be around 220L.
In box cases, sensitivity is lower than the "PA" target of 100+ dB/2.83V/1M
Attachments
Brian Steel,
Thank you again for the sims!
I'm pretty familiar with the BP sound from auto installs, usually loud but not what I call SQ oriented. Although, we are talking PA subs here.
I got to tell you the TL graff looks better to me. Especially with four cabs. The phase curve on either end of a PB's bandwidth goes crazy, along with the GD.
If one enters in middle of the road semi-conductance #'s, does the FR go downhill? These Dayton's have 11mm Xmax which would almost be a waste in an BP. I think the TL design would allow it higher excursion = better VC cooling.
On the conservative side (TL) lets call 30Hz = 91dB, so 2x = 97dB, 4x =103dB and 40Hz = 107dB at 2.83V.
That seems crazy good to me for $480 of drivers.
I really need to download you TL worksheet! I'm curious if the low-pass was set to a max of 120Hz, if eliminating the offset would be a plus? Seems like it would gain a few dB's, but would the first null drop from it's 190'ish to at/below 120Hz? Would in-band ripple go way up too?
The other obvious +'s are better GD, much easier integration to the mains, and a tall'ish cab (easy to load into pickup truck). 100+Lbs cube shapes are not fun to deadlift past your waist, long cabs are a tilt on tailgate-lift- & slide in affair.
Thank you again for the sims!
I'm pretty familiar with the BP sound from auto installs, usually loud but not what I call SQ oriented. Although, we are talking PA subs here.
I got to tell you the TL graff looks better to me. Especially with four cabs. The phase curve on either end of a PB's bandwidth goes crazy, along with the GD.
If one enters in middle of the road semi-conductance #'s, does the FR go downhill? These Dayton's have 11mm Xmax which would almost be a waste in an BP. I think the TL design would allow it higher excursion = better VC cooling.
On the conservative side (TL) lets call 30Hz = 91dB, so 2x = 97dB, 4x =103dB and 40Hz = 107dB at 2.83V.
That seems crazy good to me for $480 of drivers.
I really need to download you TL worksheet! I'm curious if the low-pass was set to a max of 120Hz, if eliminating the offset would be a plus? Seems like it would gain a few dB's, but would the first null drop from it's 190'ish to at/below 120Hz? Would in-band ripple go way up too?
The other obvious +'s are better GD, much easier integration to the mains, and a tall'ish cab (easy to load into pickup truck). 100+Lbs cube shapes are not fun to deadlift past your waist, long cabs are a tilt on tailgate-lift- & slide in affair.
Chris661,
Nice tease, but 14+cubes is outside of my tolerance of portability! I have a 12cubed cab in my HT, it barely sqeezes though doors and looks like a missing stone block from an Egyptian Pyramid.
Also that $4000 PowerSoft Amp almost costs more than all the amps I own (Qty: 6). I have 6KW RMS for subs, but never intended that for a single cab!
Anyway, sounds cool - just not my cup of tea.
Nice tease, but 14+cubes is outside of my tolerance of portability! I have a 12cubed cab in my HT, it barely sqeezes though doors and looks like a missing stone block from an Egyptian Pyramid.
Also that $4000 PowerSoft Amp almost costs more than all the amps I own (Qty: 6). I have 6KW RMS for subs, but never intended that for a single cab!
Anyway, sounds cool - just not my cup of tea.
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Definitions of portable may vary. My cab was around 2'x2'x4', and actually fairly easy to move with wheels, and fit through doors just fine. Handles and wheels on the back - just tip it and roll it into position.
In your case, then, I'd go for a pair of 4th order bandpass enclosures. Isobaric. I'd expect you could get it down to 150L.
With regards to sound quality, I was actually quite impressed with the bandpass design. It hit hard, but wasn't a one-note wonder - it played notes! They do rely on good design and constructing the cabinet as close as possible to that design. Car audio is an entirely different beast, and I'm not surprised you experienced variable results there.
When it comes to power levels, 6KW across four drivers will be plenty. Doubling the power gets you 3dB more level, minus heating and other compression effects. Bridging that Powersoft amp was more to find out what the cabinet could take. Apparently, quite a lot. I should've brought my big amp...
Chris
In your case, then, I'd go for a pair of 4th order bandpass enclosures. Isobaric. I'd expect you could get it down to 150L.
With regards to sound quality, I was actually quite impressed with the bandpass design. It hit hard, but wasn't a one-note wonder - it played notes! They do rely on good design and constructing the cabinet as close as possible to that design. Car audio is an entirely different beast, and I'm not surprised you experienced variable results there.
When it comes to power levels, 6KW across four drivers will be plenty. Doubling the power gets you 3dB more level, minus heating and other compression effects. Bridging that Powersoft amp was more to find out what the cabinet could take. Apparently, quite a lot. I should've brought my big amp...
Chris
Chris661,
I'm glad your PB design worked well! For tour rigs, those would be considered a moderately sized cab. But I'm a one man show, so that size would almost be manageable. Unfortunately the weight would not be.
Yeah the iso-loaded BP was first proposed & sim'ed by Brian Steel. It was 138L net, which seemed crazy small to me. Pretty good sensitivity too, but that driver stuck in the oven(chamber) is a major detractor.
The Mass Loaded TL cfg is looking good for these drivers. And yes I do realize that is an atypical loading for PA subs, but these Dayton's have stupid high Qtc.
I'm glad your PB design worked well! For tour rigs, those would be considered a moderately sized cab. But I'm a one man show, so that size would almost be manageable. Unfortunately the weight would not be.
Yeah the iso-loaded BP was first proposed & sim'ed by Brian Steel. It was 138L net, which seemed crazy small to me. Pretty good sensitivity too, but that driver stuck in the oven(chamber) is a major detractor.
The Mass Loaded TL cfg is looking good for these drivers. And yes I do realize that is an atypical loading for PA subs, but these Dayton's have stupid high Qtc.
I remember a while back i read somewhere(Weems or Dickason )that using a layer of damping material (dacron?) Stretched over the back of the woofer would lower the Qms and therefore the qts. Anyone else heard of this??
I tried it on a pro15" in a 2ft box and did get a lowered f3.
Efficiency probably suffered though...
I tried it on a pro15" in a 2ft box and did get a lowered f3.
Efficiency probably suffered though...
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