Are 18", 21" pro audio subwoofers better than 12", 15" hifi subwoofers?
Are pro audio subwoofers better in terms of transient response and distortion than hifi subwoofers? I plan on using sealed enclosures with Hypex plate amplifiers, so frequency response will not be a problem since I will use DSP to achieve subsonic bass. I just want a driver which can handle lower bass with the least distortion as possible and which has great transient response. With my current knowledge pro audio woofers seem more adequate to the job, since they use larger diaphragms which somewhat have a low mass and are made to achieve high SPL.
Are pro audio subwoofers better in terms of transient response and distortion than hifi subwoofers? I plan on using sealed enclosures with Hypex plate amplifiers, so frequency response will not be a problem since I will use DSP to achieve subsonic bass. I just want a driver which can handle lower bass with the least distortion as possible and which has great transient response. With my current knowledge pro audio woofers seem more adequate to the job, since they use larger diaphragms which somewhat have a low mass and are made to achieve high SPL.
The response to transients depends on the type of box, so the sealed ones are much superior to the BR in that aspect. In my opinion, the speaker does not have any or very little influence.
If the major Xmax is important, and the lower FS. The latter will also depend on the availability you have to get the speakers.
I had to buy here in my country in a very limited offer an Eminence PA speaker, and simulate the box to achieve what I'm looking for in HI FI. The PA speakers are usually not the same as a subwoofer speaker for HI FI because their response curve greatly enhances the bass response with "punch", that is, between 50 and 150 hz approx. What options do you have? JBL- Selenium and what else? If you get 18 Sound 18 ", with DSP you'll be comfortable
If the major Xmax is important, and the lower FS. The latter will also depend on the availability you have to get the speakers.
I had to buy here in my country in a very limited offer an Eminence PA speaker, and simulate the box to achieve what I'm looking for in HI FI. The PA speakers are usually not the same as a subwoofer speaker for HI FI because their response curve greatly enhances the bass response with "punch", that is, between 50 and 150 hz approx. What options do you have? JBL- Selenium and what else? If you get 18 Sound 18 ", with DSP you'll be comfortable
I would have to say yes or no. You have to choose carefully.
A good pro woofer certainly can beat a hifi subwoofer as far as transient response.
If you are looking for alot of clean bass for 100hz and below, 18" is the sweet spot as far as price and performance. There are quite a few 21 inch woofers that not not any better than some good 15 inch woofers. There are even some 30 inch woofers that have poor price to performance.
Think in terms of bore and stroke when sizing up a woofer. Look at xmax times cone area when sizing a woofer for subsonic frequencies.
A good pro woofer certainly can beat a hifi subwoofer as far as transient response.
If you are looking for alot of clean bass for 100hz and below, 18" is the sweet spot as far as price and performance. There are quite a few 21 inch woofers that not not any better than some good 15 inch woofers. There are even some 30 inch woofers that have poor price to performance.
Think in terms of bore and stroke when sizing up a woofer. Look at xmax times cone area when sizing a woofer for subsonic frequencies.
Well, I'm living in Portugal now and I can have access to any kind of european driver. Scanspeak, SB Acoustics, SEAS, Peerless, B&C, LaVoce, Ceare, FaitalPRO, Ciare, Celestion.
I just want something with good transient response and low distortion and high SPL capability in the deepest bass range. I will DSP to tweek the response curve to -3db 10hz on sealed cabinets.
The difference between pro woofers for me, it seems, is that they have stiffer suspensions, and much greater cone area. Hifi woofers generally have smaller cone area but softer suspension. In order to achieve the same SPL as pro woofers I would need to use multiple drivers. Which solution gives the lowest distortion? Pro woofers have the benefit of being much cheaper. I can get a LaVoce or a B&C 18 inch driver costing around 250€, while hifi woofers are smaller and cost the same if they are 12 inches or much more if they are bigger (the 15" SB acoustics driver costs 400€).
Above ~35Hz I'd say pro woofers are an excellent choice. However once you need response below that you are trying to force them to do something they were not designed for.
'Most' pro woofers are designed to be used in ported enclosures. In sealed boxes they often start rolling of around 100Hz so if you want response to 10Hz then you'll need around 500 watts at 10Hz to equal the output at 100Hz / 1 watt.
If I was wanting deep response with pro woofers I'd be looking at big (huge!) ported boxes tuned to ~15Hz and use the available EQ to fix the response once measured in room. (EBS enclosure style) and forget about sub 15Hz response.
It also depends on what sort of spl you are looking to play at. If normal music stuff then a pair of sealed / EQ'd 18's with big amps could do it. If proper home theatre / 'fun' level music then ported / multiple subs will be needed.
My system at the moment is running a pair of fane 15's ported at 24Hz. They do fine on music in my 20' x 10' room but I have had them hit their limits on films.
Rob.
'Most' pro woofers are designed to be used in ported enclosures. In sealed boxes they often start rolling of around 100Hz so if you want response to 10Hz then you'll need around 500 watts at 10Hz to equal the output at 100Hz / 1 watt.
If I was wanting deep response with pro woofers I'd be looking at big (huge!) ported boxes tuned to ~15Hz and use the available EQ to fix the response once measured in room. (EBS enclosure style) and forget about sub 15Hz response.
It also depends on what sort of spl you are looking to play at. If normal music stuff then a pair of sealed / EQ'd 18's with big amps could do it. If proper home theatre / 'fun' level music then ported / multiple subs will be needed.
My system at the moment is running a pair of fane 15's ported at 24Hz. They do fine on music in my 20' x 10' room but I have had them hit their limits on films.
Rob.
The short answer is yes, they move more air and are more efficient:
B&C Speakers
low fs in a driver can often mean the cone mass is greater than required which reduces efficiency. If applying electronic EQ the driver fs becomes less important and you start to care more about maximum SPL capability which is governed by input power capability and xmax for a given diameter driver. Powerfull amplifiers with DSP are now cheap to push 1000W+.
B&C Speakers
low fs in a driver can often mean the cone mass is greater than required which reduces efficiency. If applying electronic EQ the driver fs becomes less important and you start to care more about maximum SPL capability which is governed by input power capability and xmax for a given diameter driver. Powerfull amplifiers with DSP are now cheap to push 1000W+.
"Better" sure is a vague word in OP's post.
Ordinarily, "Pro" is a code-word for junk sound (small magnets, big magnetic gaps, very heavy cone assemblies, etc) but can play loud without bursting into flames.
For most purposes, the only parameter that matters is the driver resonance because that pretty much defines how low it will go in relation to different types of "enclosures". After that you have cone displacement capturing how loud it will go on peaks and usually not an issue for homes.
Compromising low resonance in order to buy other parameters is not sensible, at least for home HiFi.
B.
Ordinarily, "Pro" is a code-word for junk sound (small magnets, big magnetic gaps, very heavy cone assemblies, etc) but can play loud without bursting into flames.
For most purposes, the only parameter that matters is the driver resonance because that pretty much defines how low it will go in relation to different types of "enclosures". After that you have cone displacement capturing how loud it will go on peaks and usually not an issue for homes.
Compromising low resonance in order to buy other parameters is not sensible, at least for home HiFi.
B.
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I think this might be a good driver for subwoofer application. It has good 13mm of one way linear excursion and can achieve its full excursion at 20 hz with 500 watts in a not so big sealed box. I couldn't find distortion and linearity measurements.
LaVoce SAF184.03 - 18" Subwoofer
LaVoce SAF184.03 - 18" Subwoofer
Actually, I'm not looking at crappy pro woofers, but quality parts, made for achieving high spl. B&C, Eminence, Celestion are some examples of that. Resonant frequency is not that important for me since I will use DSP and sealed enclosures. What is important to me is low distortion and good transient response.
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I don't know what magic you assume your DSP will perform. But you'll get better distortion and transient performance if you can push your sealed box resonance low and edge it out of your passband.
The ultimate compromise may turn out to be how many quality non-Pro drivers you need to buy to have enough BL and enough excursion to meet your expectations.
B,
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It's not magic, it will just decrease the levels the upper range and increase the levels in the lower range. I don't know how much the Hypex dsp can alter the sound, but most DSPs I know work with +- 12db. Even if the woofer plays very low in the bass range and very high in the upper range, if it reaches the output I want, in the box size I want, with the power I want, there will be no problems, the DSP will correct that. Moreover, low FS woofers have higher mass, and higher mass ruins sensitivity and transients. I don't want very high excursion stuff because they tend to have a lot of distortion.
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Spartan,
FWIW, I use B&C and BMS. The higher end B&C like the SW series is similar to BMS and competitive. I have also tested La Voce and I would have used them but they didn’t fit unfortunately in my current box (frame was 0.25 inches too wide!). They are very well designed.
Currently my system is composed of B&C, BMS and Funk. All 3 are satisfying and extraordinarily clean sounding at extreme SPL levels in my 3600 cubic foot (102 cubic meter) room. I reviewed measurements done by Vance Dickason of Voice Coil (particularly Klippel measurements) and Josh Ricci’s Databass prior to making my choices.
I actually don’t mind Hifi drivers but for 15,18 and 21 inch diameters I felt that Pro drivers were very competitive if you can build the right sized enclosure. In addition they have their own Klippel analyzers and the best have large voice coils, high sensitivity, high BL, flat BL with excursion, low inductance, and symmetric fields due to multiple aluminum demodulating rings.
Good luck!
Anand.
FWIW, I use B&C and BMS. The higher end B&C like the SW series is similar to BMS and competitive. I have also tested La Voce and I would have used them but they didn’t fit unfortunately in my current box (frame was 0.25 inches too wide!). They are very well designed.
Currently my system is composed of B&C, BMS and Funk. All 3 are satisfying and extraordinarily clean sounding at extreme SPL levels in my 3600 cubic foot (102 cubic meter) room. I reviewed measurements done by Vance Dickason of Voice Coil (particularly Klippel measurements) and Josh Ricci’s Databass prior to making my choices.
I actually don’t mind Hifi drivers but for 15,18 and 21 inch diameters I felt that Pro drivers were very competitive if you can build the right sized enclosure. In addition they have their own Klippel analyzers and the best have large voice coils, high sensitivity, high BL, flat BL with excursion, low inductance, and symmetric fields due to multiple aluminum demodulating rings.
Good luck!
Anand.
I agree. Prosound woofer are hard to beat. Particularly for music playback systems.
Any of the reputable European brands will perfom well. Consider a prosound rack amp with dsp as well. Hypex performance advantage will be lost at bass frequencies. Keep it for your mids and tweets.
Buy the highest displacement and motor force you can afford. IPAL's and DS series at the top of the pack. The other super woofers are all similar in motor force and displacement.
Eminence is also entering the game with their Tour Series 21" and 18". Probably more expensive in Europe but very interesting for U.S. builders.
Any of the reputable European brands will perfom well. Consider a prosound rack amp with dsp as well. Hypex performance advantage will be lost at bass frequencies. Keep it for your mids and tweets.
Buy the highest displacement and motor force you can afford. IPAL's and DS series at the top of the pack. The other super woofers are all similar in motor force and displacement.
Eminence is also entering the game with their Tour Series 21" and 18". Probably more expensive in Europe but very interesting for U.S. builders.
Well, good to know that the word "Pro" is can also have its traditional meaning.
But buyers need to distinguish the .5% of very expensive "Pro" driver models identified in this thread that can deliver quality sound from the rest that are suitable only for open-back electric guitar cases used on "open mic" musician nights.
B.
But buyers need to distinguish the .5% of very expensive "Pro" driver models identified in this thread that can deliver quality sound from the rest that are suitable only for open-back electric guitar cases used on "open mic" musician nights.
B.
Those have similar specs, which one is better in terms of linearity and distortion? At the first glance the LaVoce looks like a better driver since it has more force, higher compliance, better terminals and 1.5 mm of extra xmax.
B&C Speaker 18TBW100 - 18" Subwoofer
LaVoce SAF184.03 - 18" Subwoofer
B&C Speaker 18TBW100 - 18" Subwoofer
LaVoce SAF184.03 - 18" Subwoofer
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Spartan,
I like the link to the loudspeaker database, it gives nice summaries, thanks for posting those!
However, it is impossible to tell with the data presented, regarding linearity and distortion without looking at Klippel data and distortion data. I would encourage you to look for those, perhaps in the back issues of Voice Coil magazine (sometimes published online) or elsewhere.
In the mean time, I'll see if I can find any Klippel data.
FOUND IT!
Go to page 18 on this link:
https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/15_Mfrs_Publications/40_Voice_Coil/2012/2012_7_Jul.pdf
The measurements are exceptional as Vance Dickason states for the B&C Woofer. Particularly look at the Kms symmetry curves and BL symmetry. Those are about the best you can get.
For the La Voce, I do not know, but I know Voice Coil plans on measuring their whole line of drivers since they are now being distributed by Parts Express in the USA. I do have high hopes for them, and in fact, one of my colleagues routinely measures drivers for an online magazine and he was impressed with the La Voce drivers when he had a chance to visit their factory.
That being said, it is hard to go wrong with B&C.
Understand that the competition is FIERCE at these price points, all the relevant pro audio companies, particularly in Northern Italy have crazy R&D requirements and serve to a much bigger world than the low life hifi enthusiasts we are! Also understand that B&C now owns Ciare and 18Sound, both of whom are excellent transducer companies. The other being Faital Pro in that area.
La Voce is up and coming, and I wish them well, their prices here in the USA are excellent.
Best,
Anand.
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Because they are too expensive, I can have those ferrite woofers for 200 - 250€, while the IPAL costs over 900€. And I don't know if I am wrong, but they are only made to work properly with the Powersoft IPAL amplifier. I plan on pairing the woofers to a 500 watts Hypex plate amp which costs 330€.
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The same reasons I don't have them
. You can use them with normal amplifiers if you wire two in series but they would be wasted on only a 500W amplifier.