Peerless vs Dayton Audio

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I want to add a pair of woofers to my stereo, which has very good bass response already. I want below 30 Hz, so I'll do some signal shaping to push the woofer into that range. Does that work with a bandpass box?


I would like to know if anyone can compare Peerless 830667 and Dayton Audio DCS205-4? The DCS205-4 will go into a 17L bandpass box, and the Peerless into a 38L bandpass box.


Since I am wanting it to be compact, I'm leaning to the Dayton Audio. Would that be a good choice?
 
If you build a 4th order bandpass, then yes you can EQ it to get lower. At frequencies below the pass band the rear chamber, together with the woofer parameters, determines the efficiency. Note that a bandpass sub has the trade-offs efficiency vs bandwidth (front chamber volume) and efficiency vs low frequency extension (rear chamber volume); the suggestion that a simulator comes up with is just an example. The port should be tuned to the resonance frequency of the woofer in the rear chamber if you want a flat response.

The Peerless SLS series like large enclosures because they have a relatively weak motor. That Dayton woofer has got a stronger motor and heavier cone and is therefore better suited to small enclosures.
Peerless SLS 830667: BL = 8,26 TM; Re = 5,5 ohms so BL^2/Re = 12,4 (TM)^2/ohm
Dayton DCS205-4: BL = 10,7 TM; Re = 3,9 ohms so BL^2/Re = 29,4 (TM)^2/ohm
 
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While typing the below, I saw the response, and thank you!



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If the DCS205-4 is well regarded (I'll also search the forums about it), I think a sealed enclosure would be a better choice (marginally easier, and a bit better on the lowest frequencies).


I reckon a 20L sealed with a 4th order LPF at 40 Hz should give decent low-end response. I'd say a ~300 W amplifier should be fine to handle the headroom.


FR-DCS205-4.png
 
If you want bass extention to 30 Hz, don´t look at 8" drivers. There are ways to force small drivers down to the low end, which are extreme excursion and huge power, but the money is better spent on a larger driver. The results of small subwoofers might be surprising at first, but after that surprise is gone, you will only thinker about a larger one. For small rooms a single 10" driver can be a usable high quality extention, but even then a 12" will perform much more relaxed. If you think about cost, volume is cheap, while amplifier power and high specialised woofers are expensive. If you take into account that it will take you only a few minutes more to finish a large sub, compared to a small one, the idea of a mini sub becomes less attractive by the minute you think about it.
The WAF which is often mentioned, is not about litres of volume, but against any audio, belive me! Wife does not want money spent, furniture moved, men building, sanding, painting an glueing things. They want to be the center of your activity, not some "build".

OK, back to the sub, you can build a nice sub that reaches under 30 Hz in a 40 litre sub (outside volume). 50 l inside will rattle any glas in the cupboard, done right. Experiment with this volume, as long as the driver fits on one side the form is not important. The good thing about diys is you can match it to your living room. So maybe move a paper box around and make your self comfortable with a decent size. You will realise it does not make much of a difference hiding a 8" or 12" cabinet.
 
Turbowatch2, you are absolutely right. What I actually want is a pair of 15" woofers thundering down to 15 Hz at huge SPL. 15" is too big, so I did look at 12", but resulting boxes were too big. I didn't find desirable results of 10" over what I could achieve with 8" for the price/size/etc. (I didn't look very hard in larger sizes due to final desired size).



I'm also wanting to make it as compact as possible because I want a pair of woofers, one next to each speaker, and we have been toiling extremely hard to get our house sorted and de-cluttered. I did a huge effort in this regard the last month, tiling, painting, removing pelmets and putting up new curtains, and I really like the room now. My wife does too. I therefore don't want to upset the balance we've worked so hard for.


Have a look at the attached pic. (Ok, so now there are two more couches in, one on each side, and a rug, and the curtains are finished).



The amp is that wooden thing on the left. I'm going to build a nice cabinet there to house the PC (under the amp), the amp, and I had something else in mind I can't quite remember now. I could put a pair of subs on the outside side of each speaker, or I can put them behind the speakers, and move the speakers forward slightly.


Where would you propose I put my big woofer, if I went that route, and would one big woofer be better than two small woofers for music sound quality? Perhaps my woofer can go where that cabinet is, the amp above, and the PC on the right?



Those speakers respond well down to 26 Hz in the room (albeit at reduced SPL).


I'll have a look at some 12" options, and I can post them here. I have about 300 W x2 for two 4 ohm woofers. I think ideal would be a DVC with 2x 8 ohm coils (150 W each), or I can just make a single 300 W amp (4 ohms) with components I have because for 2x 300W I need to add a little more heatsink.
 

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Hello Mrcloc.
For the experiment (I have done this) you could remove the cabinet doors and fabricate replacement front panels housing a woofer each side.
The rear panel could be left open baffle or sealed, with tons of the right damping inside these enclosures would work well, maybe you can run 15"s....or double 8" .
The job of these subs is to augment the '26 Hz' bass you have already...without filtering the mains speakers, the extra pair of woofers will acoustically take load and excursion off the existing setup...you will have one really big woofer in the bottom lows in effect.


So the subs need to be rolled off at some appropriate finely set frequency and provide fine level control......I find these fine tuning features are mandatory due to huge variability in bottom bass according to source or age/genre/recording/mastering etc.
This gives option to run 'flat/accurate' sound or 'crank the bass' for fun if the groove suits......either way expect to have to do some tweaking from one album to the next to get the mega best out of it.


I would recommend pre-built plate amps with level, frequency and (polarity if possible but not a deal breaker)eq/slope would be handy.....just one plate amp driving both woofers would work great, stereo subs might need monoing/narrowing for the very lowest stuff.
The heavy weight front baffle panel (the thickest ply you can find) can be mounted without marring/drilling the existing cabinet front edges (brackets or strips mounted inside the enclosure) and can be surface mounted or recessed.


This way might help WAF/decor issues.....the stuff in those cabinets can find a different shelf !.
My passive version result 30 yrs ago worked quite well at the time and did the job.
Nowadays I am running 6.5" two ways and an active sub (plate amp) and do find that variability of recordings can be a hassle, on the other hand being able to fatten the bass and tweak it to how you like is cool, really cool, and all with the mains running full range and flat.


Positioning of this central sub is critical, L/R and depth positioning have to be right but once set don't need touching.....outboard subs would never sound 'right' and the subs in fixed position in the cabinet in conjunction with fine positioning of the mains will work especially well.


Cheers.
Dan.
 
Hi Dan. I've actually considered it in the past. The cabinet is way too flimsy for woofers. However, it would be possible to fit a 10" built woofer into each cupboard and remove the doors. I'd probably have to also try to remove the rear panel. I've been wanting to make a more accessible storage for the things inside, so maybe I can do that first. The UM10-22 in box as I describe above would most likely fit quite neatly in... I'll start with one, seeing that the UM10-22 is $170.
 
To people new to subwoofer design the question for the right speaker, amplifier and maybe crossover seem to be important, as well as cost. If you dig deeper, you will realise you can find the right parts to fit any need. The only question is the outer volume and dimensions of the box allowed. As some commercial products show, you can fit some impercise wana be bass sound in the tinyest cube. So do your self a favor and find the right place and space for your sub first and then ask for the components to fit into that volume.
My first idea would be to place a single sub under your wooden amplifier. Two subs are better than one, but one large sub will sound better than two small ones could be a rule of thumb.

Your listening room is very special, as it has glas at two sides, I don´t have any idea how it will behave. The curtain at the left will have a very positive influence on high and middle sound. For serious listening there should be one at he right, too. Also, your floor standing loudspeakers are quite large, they should be able to deliver some bass, which makes me think you could have not a "too few bass" but "to much high/midd" problem.
From a idealistic standpoint it does not make too much sense to add a 8" woofer to a speaker with two 6" speakers. To really extend the low end a 10" seems to be the minimum in your situation.
Another question, do you have a high pass for the floor standers to limit it´s low end? This improves the sound much more than only adding a sub, because it takes stress from the main amp and the midd cones.
 
Hi Turbowatch2.


Thanks, your first point about finding the right place and dimensions was why I went with two 8", either on the outsides of the existing speakers, or behind them.


One UM10-22 will fit under the amp, so I want that. I've basically decided that's the driver for me.



I have said above that I do get response to about 26 Hz, but it needs reinforcement from about 30 - 35 Hz down. In addition, I have also said above that the curtains have since been completed, so there are curtains along both sides and two extra couches as well as a rug. My only problem at the moment is rear wall reflections, but it's not so bad. Sound quality in the room is outstanding. I have caused dogs in the neighbourhood to start barking with my speakers...



Glass is a remarkable material. It blocks sound very well, considering how thin it is (additionally considering how it also blocks heat).


I do agree that adding 8" woofers to 6.5" speakers doesn't make too much sense.


In terms of electronics, I will design and build the amplifier and preamp/filter. With the UM10-22, I probably won't need compensation filtering, so I thought I'd build in a variable LPF (30 Hz - 100 Hz), but I'll have to investigate the steepness of the slope, and I'd like to build in a 0-180 degree variable phase correction. The amplifier will be 300 W for the 2 VCs wired in series, giving 4 ohms. That's my plan at least.


I did plan on making a separate amplifier, but I'll think about that more because a built-in amplifier does make the woofer more portable, which suits me.
 
That sounds like a good plan, don´t worry about rear reflections that much, they are part of the game. Acoustically "dead" room´s sound terrible, only glas is really disturbing.
If you are into electronics, the best and very low costing way is a D-Amp with SMPS and a DSP.
The DSP that is most bang for the buck ist from WONDOM-Sure. I do not recommend their amps and stuff, but the DSP is OK. You get it with programer for US$ 50. The often recomended Mini DSP is conveniant, but has some not so nice sides, like noise and on/off plop´s.
A good amp is the LJM15Dpro
Assembeld LJM L15D Pro Mono Power amplifier board IRS2092 IRFB4019 | eBay
Add a 2x48-50volt SMPS and you have enough power for a 4 Ohm sub, or take a larger version, like the 20 or 25. These amps have proved to work well. So depending on import duty´s you could get a powered DSP for around 120 US$. With D-amp and SMPS you dont have to worry about cooling, like with a A/B amp. When you want to integrate it into the sub, an impotant fact. Anyway, from my experience, I would not build it into the box. Much more flexible and less problems with vibrations / electronics.
 
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I just did some calculaions with the woofer you picked, what kind of enclosure volume do you have in mind?
The UM10-22 is one of the highest excursion woofers on the market, it will need quite some volume as vented cabinet with a passive radiator (or a very long vent) or a smaller closed house plus DSP, but with crazy power demand. 500W rms to give an idea or upto 1000W program...
With loudspeakers, everthing comes at a price.
Maybe you could guess how loud you want to hear (feel)?
 
With a UM10-22, I would do a 47L internal, which equates to about 55L, including the port and driver displacement. Port is flared on both ends, 8cm diameter and about 60cm long in total. Internal dimensions are about 35 x 35 x 45 cm, the port is bent. I'm guessing that's about 15 m/s air speed max.


It does need a lot of power, hence 300 W I'm planning (600 W program, as you put it). I will design my own electronics, and I have components for 300 W already (transformer, transistors, etc.).


With 300 W, I believe I'll get about (theoretically) 100 dB SPL at about 30 Hz, -3 dB at 20 Hz. In room, I believe I'll get a few more dB from room gain, and add in the speakers, should give me more than enough.
 
If you only want to use it up to 300w rms, consider using the Dayton RSS265HF-4 10" instead. It will need less power and sound more relaxed, while giving similar in room response.
The UM22 is a very extreme chassis, which will not automatically get the best sound. I expect it to be inferior to RSS at medium/low volume. It might only "come alive" with much higher level. It is like using a F1 car for shoping.
For music frequency´s under 30Hz get less important, so don´t expect to loose anything with 4 Hz less... volume does not change, just a few litres less. But please, you have to build a very well braced housing for these sub´s. So that will need quite some volume. Don´t make the "I do thick walls" mistake, the cabinet for ether chassis will need internal reinforcement´s. 22mm MDF or ply will do. in the end you will even save some money with the RSS on Chassis and amplification.
Just my 2 cent.

PS The RSS in 50 litres will still give a -8dB point under 20 Hz! -8dB is what commercial products often tell you, if they are 1/2 honest. More often -12... This is without DSP correction. By the way, a DSP is needed or room correction with such low frequency woofer`s.
Last, consider a passive radiator, it is much better than a reflex port with such configurations. 60cm is very long and can only be fitted with some bending, which is less preverable.
 
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passive radiator:

Dayton Audio RSS265-PR 10" Aluminum Cone Passive Radiator - Passive Radiators - Loudspeaker Drivers By Type - Loudspeaker Components

This one will fit with the RSS. You save a lot of hassle with the construction of a port, which is worth much more than the money it costs. Only 60 US$ when you consider the money saved with the RSS. The end result will be much better, because of the too long port with the relative small volume. Just put it at one side of the box, must not be the rear. This combination will give you a real high end sub, comparable with the most expensive commercial produkts. No problems with port noise is a real advantage with such combinations (small & deep). No funny "umpf" sounds.

You can also easily tune it to fit the room, if you fit it inside out for testing. Only takes seconds to tune it lower or higher with changing weights. That can be a real problem solver!
 
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It looks good!


That RSS265HF-4 is very nice, and the response will be better for my use. I think a 56L, including the port, but if I add a passive radiator, 50L will do. What's wrong with the DSA270-PR? I think ~22Hz will be a fine tuning point?


I'm planning 32mm panels all around, and some decent bracing. :)
 
My initial thought was to do two 8", and put them somewhere discrete. Going for a 12" will work nicely, but why not think bigger?


So I've done a few calculations, etc. and I think I can fit in a big woofer right in the corner. It will only be used for special occasions, I guess. I therefore think my best option is to go with a DCS385-4 in a 212L box (about 66 x 66 x 66 cm), tuned to 17.5 Hz. If I filter with a very steep filter at about 33 Hz, I will get -3 dB response down to the mid-teens. In addition, it's not power-hungry, and a 300 W will suit it well.


Let it begin. My only problem will be getting the massive driver back home. Little drivers are easy to transport for kind people willing to bring stuff back when visiting USA, but a box 40 x 40 x 19 cm is going to take some convincing. Perhaps I can make a 39cm diameter hardboard template for the kind person to screw onto the driver, and then they can shove it into their luggage without the box...
 
I would like to know if anyone can compare Peerless 830667 and Dayton Audio DCS205-4? The DCS205-4 will go into a 17L bandpass box, and the Peerless into a 38L bandpass box.

I've used the DCS205-4. It's a nice woofer. I wouldn't use it in a bandpass box though. I got pretty good results using it in an offset TL - have a look at the "Boom Unit" project at my website.

Just remember though that it IS an 8" driver....
 
Now you have been infected with sub woofer fever. Welcome!

The excursion of the radiator has to match the woofer, so the cheaper one does not fit the RSS. The resonance of the PR is adjusted by weight you screw on, so the RSS would have needed another 60g or so fixed with 50 litres.
There are rules to the game you have to respect if you want a 100% result!
 
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what I see to be a table with a amplifier on and a computer standing beneath? why not place a sub there. lay the computer sideways under the amp.

I dont see how the 6 inchers extend that low realistically, though some may be the room size, I say a good 12 inch ported would be ideal for this room. the computer and amps can be in a stack or a unit above and the floor space is retained.

I would cross abit higher too as elevating the pressure from the mains will make for clearer sound when you turn up the volume as the cones themselves will be moving less and more within the linear field.

another idea would be a tall thin cabinet in one of both corners.

also a 8inch Can add extension if it where being used in a limited pass band, aka your original passband concept. I presume at reasonable levels that would be fine and still add you abit of lower resonance.


or.... you could lay a tapped horn or offset transmission line Under the table and mains.. if you didn't mind moving the screen and picture up abit..

or stood in one or corner.. though corner placement not to ideal

under that table with the mouth/port to one side work well.
 
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