I will second "lowpoke's" suggestion about a front loaded midbass horn. Depending on room size you could go with a similar design. I made a 75hz. front loaded horn using 2 Altec 515b's in parallel per side with 10" throats.
Here is a tip on how to form the curved sides of the horn. You will have to figure out the exact finished size you need. Get a piece of 3/4" plywood slightly bigger then the curved panel you are going to make. Cut 4 or 5 ribs that have the curve (exponential is common) and space them out and screw them down on the flat piece of plywood. You now made a form in which you can use bendable plywood called "wiggle board" usually 3/8" thick. Now get some commercial grade wood epoxy and glue multiple sheets of the wiggle board over the ribs you cut--one at a time clamping them down waiting overnight for each piece to dry. I would use 4 or 5 layers--more if you want. You make 4 of these curved panels for a pair of horns. The top and bottom horn panels can be flat at a 12 to 15 degree angle. You can scale these up to whatever size you want and the panels produce an extremely rigid non resonant and smooth curve. I veneered mine, but you can finish as to your liking. Hope people can understand my instructions. Good luck.
Here is a tip on how to form the curved sides of the horn. You will have to figure out the exact finished size you need. Get a piece of 3/4" plywood slightly bigger then the curved panel you are going to make. Cut 4 or 5 ribs that have the curve (exponential is common) and space them out and screw them down on the flat piece of plywood. You now made a form in which you can use bendable plywood called "wiggle board" usually 3/8" thick. Now get some commercial grade wood epoxy and glue multiple sheets of the wiggle board over the ribs you cut--one at a time clamping them down waiting overnight for each piece to dry. I would use 4 or 5 layers--more if you want. You make 4 of these curved panels for a pair of horns. The top and bottom horn panels can be flat at a 12 to 15 degree angle. You can scale these up to whatever size you want and the panels produce an extremely rigid non resonant and smooth curve. I veneered mine, but you can finish as to your liking. Hope people can understand my instructions. Good luck.
Interesting, because at first I wanted to mount my SA8535 below the mid horn, like you have, but was then talked out of it. No matter how many different *test* systems I had, I found that dead-center ear height placement of the SA's worked best. Okay, having established all that, I now have them way up high, but tilted down such that their focus aims directly at the listening chair, PLUS, I have them crossed higher than ever before. (Now at 8K). Even crossed this high, at 18db/oct, the beauty of this tweeter still shines through. The leading edge IMPACT, that leads to tremendous bass response, is alive and well. I have very large round horns for mid-range, and the drivers inside them are capable of 18K; but nothing, and I mean NOTHING can touch the realism of the SA-8535.
sub woofer and mid range for 4 way horn speaker
I'm building an active 4 way horn speaker and I'd appreciate if anyone could let me know whether any of the following B&C 18DS115 or 18SW100 or 18SW115 is a better performer than BMS 18N862 or FaitalPro 1800XL1800 as far as pure clean bass without distortion from 20Hz up to around 200Hz with DSP amplification or should I stick to the above mentioned BMS or Faital?
(bearing in mind that I intend to build a sealed stereo subwoofer which don't exceed the size of D-55c"m, W-55c"m, H-80-120c"m or if someone could email me a tapped/folded or other horn speaker drawings that cover the frequencies of:20-150-200Hz-I'd be grateful)
What mid range is better in this set:B&C 12PE32 or 12MH32 ?
My other planed components are tweeter-SA8535 and for compression driver B&C DCM50 .
I'm building an active 4 way horn speaker and I'd appreciate if anyone could let me know whether any of the following B&C 18DS115 or 18SW100 or 18SW115 is a better performer than BMS 18N862 or FaitalPro 1800XL1800 as far as pure clean bass without distortion from 20Hz up to around 200Hz with DSP amplification or should I stick to the above mentioned BMS or Faital?
(bearing in mind that I intend to build a sealed stereo subwoofer which don't exceed the size of D-55c"m, W-55c"m, H-80-120c"m or if someone could email me a tapped/folded or other horn speaker drawings that cover the frequencies of:20-150-200Hz-I'd be grateful)
What mid range is better in this set:B&C 12PE32 or 12MH32 ?
My other planed components are tweeter-SA8535 and for compression driver B&C DCM50 .
Go through Bd audio site. They have horns, drivers and good ideas on designs.
BD-Design, only the best!
Good luck.
BD-Design, only the best!
Good luck.
multi channel DSP/Active crossover with high FIR
I'd love to get your recommendations for Hi End multi channel (somehow it must be eventually 4 way stereo)active crossover/DSP with excellent FIR,namely as many as possible number of taps ,preferably with a Preamplifier -it can be a ready device -top quality or DIY top quality -all of which ,without taking a mortgage !
I'd love to get your recommendations for Hi End multi channel (somehow it must be eventually 4 way stereo)active crossover/DSP with excellent FIR,namely as many as possible number of taps ,preferably with a Preamplifier -it can be a ready device -top quality or DIY top quality -all of which ,without taking a mortgage !
best stereo amps for subwoofers and for amps for multi channel
I'd appreciate any opinion on BGW/Butler/Odyssey-stereo&multi-channel or any alternative for powerful stereo subwoofers with minimum 600w RMS and multi channel(6 way) for mid bass,compression driver and super tweeter preferably
multi channel tube amplifier or hybrid class A or AB,but I forgo any chinese tube amplifiers or tube/SS/Hybrid amplifiers with 1-5watts .I don't mind DIY kit for multi channel with minimum 50watts RMS or alternatively 6 mono blocks for the rest of the speakers apart from the sub woofers,but at reasonable cost .
I'd appreciate any opinion on BGW/Butler/Odyssey-stereo&multi-channel or any alternative for powerful stereo subwoofers with minimum 600w RMS and multi channel(6 way) for mid bass,compression driver and super tweeter preferably
multi channel tube amplifier or hybrid class A or AB,but I forgo any chinese tube amplifiers or tube/SS/Hybrid amplifiers with 1-5watts .I don't mind DIY kit for multi channel with minimum 50watts RMS or alternatively 6 mono blocks for the rest of the speakers apart from the sub woofers,but at reasonable cost .
Could be worth looking into old pro gear. I have a symetrix symnet 8x8 dsp which despite been old has some FIR capabilities. To get digital input into it I have the cobra link expansion and am on the lookout for a cobra link digital expansion or PCI/express card. The other cheap way is to use a computer with bruteFIR. I
@Best Hi End - your threads on the same topic have been merged. Please do not start multiple threads for your project as it’s against the Forum rules.Thanks guys,I appreciate your ideas.The trinnov is well known device,but expensive and i don't know it's FIR capabilities(number of taps).the Abacus preamplifier 14 could be very good if it was multi channel,since it has 65,535 taps but only stereo .I have few candidates ,but I'm clueless in regard to their capabilities of Hi End and FIR such as:
CAD AUDIO - DIGITAL RACK AMPLIFIERS, http://www.thel-audioworld.de(which I think is only active crossover with IIR-no DSP ) ,Analog Precision which scares me a bit since it's FIR (number of taps)is quite average and there is a need for 3rd party software .
Regarding pro gear -I am not reluctant to select it,but something modern with updated support and parts such as Ashly,but am not sure as to their FIR capabilities.
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts and ideas and if I'm wrong in something ,please let me know .
CAD AUDIO - DIGITAL RACK AMPLIFIERS, http://www.thel-audioworld.de(which I think is only active crossover with IIR-no DSP ) ,Analog Precision which scares me a bit since it's FIR (number of taps)is quite average and there is a need for 3rd party software .
Regarding pro gear -I am not reluctant to select it,but something modern with updated support and parts such as Ashly,but am not sure as to their FIR capabilities.
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts and ideas and if I'm wrong in something ,please let me know .
How many taps per channel are you looking for? (8 channels, stereo 4-way right?)
I've spent the last several years heavily delved into FIR on stereo 4-ways... And like you, have found it pretty difficult to find a processor along with the necessary I/O.
Cheapest of all is of course PC convolution. I've tried JRiver with up to 65k taps per channel, and it works. Biggest issue is obviously the need for 8ch USB DAC. I used a X-32 mixer...Rack version can be found for <$900. Or for <$450, a Behringer XR-18 also looks like it would do the job nicely.
Another path was mini-dsp. I started with a DRC-DA8, loved it, but saw I wanted more taps down low. I've ended up with 4 DRC-DI's with 6144 taps per channel. This is a great rig, and allows much finer, easier impmentation of delays and blending IIR with FIR when needed. Biggest issue again is I/O, with the DRC-DI's being digital in and out. I added a Midas DL-155 stagebox to the X-32 mixer, which has 8x8 AES as well as 8x8 analog with necessary ADC and DAC. The stagebox added $900 to the cost....but I'm sure there are cheaper ways to insert the DRC-DI's into the flow.
Current path is QSC's Q-Sys processor, Core110f. It is a entirely configurable processor...amazingly so....24 channels analog I/O, 16x16 USB. It is limited at 4096 taps per channel, though. But that and price are the only downsides so far. Again, incredible processor flexibility and tool set. It even has a dual channel FFT that you can drag and drop anywhere in the schematic. I think it gets a street price of around $2500. I got mine off ebay for $1700, and have seen a number trade at that price. Highly recommended. It's as much of a wonderful learning tool, allowing all kinds of easy experiments, and A/B comparisons as it is a processor. I'm even almost ready to depart with my mini-dsps !
The online training course is a little tongue-in-cheek goofy, but does a great job showing its capability without being boring Q-SYS Level 1 Training
I've spent the last several years heavily delved into FIR on stereo 4-ways... And like you, have found it pretty difficult to find a processor along with the necessary I/O.
Cheapest of all is of course PC convolution. I've tried JRiver with up to 65k taps per channel, and it works. Biggest issue is obviously the need for 8ch USB DAC. I used a X-32 mixer...Rack version can be found for <$900. Or for <$450, a Behringer XR-18 also looks like it would do the job nicely.
Another path was mini-dsp. I started with a DRC-DA8, loved it, but saw I wanted more taps down low. I've ended up with 4 DRC-DI's with 6144 taps per channel. This is a great rig, and allows much finer, easier impmentation of delays and blending IIR with FIR when needed. Biggest issue again is I/O, with the DRC-DI's being digital in and out. I added a Midas DL-155 stagebox to the X-32 mixer, which has 8x8 AES as well as 8x8 analog with necessary ADC and DAC. The stagebox added $900 to the cost....but I'm sure there are cheaper ways to insert the DRC-DI's into the flow.
Current path is QSC's Q-Sys processor, Core110f. It is a entirely configurable processor...amazingly so....24 channels analog I/O, 16x16 USB. It is limited at 4096 taps per channel, though. But that and price are the only downsides so far. Again, incredible processor flexibility and tool set. It even has a dual channel FFT that you can drag and drop anywhere in the schematic. I think it gets a street price of around $2500. I got mine off ebay for $1700, and have seen a number trade at that price. Highly recommended. It's as much of a wonderful learning tool, allowing all kinds of easy experiments, and A/B comparisons as it is a processor. I'm even almost ready to depart with my mini-dsps !
The online training course is a little tongue-in-cheek goofy, but does a great job showing its capability without being boring Q-SYS Level 1 TrainingThanks Mark-it seems interesting,although due to some reading ,I'm not fond of QSC nor MINI DSP (seem more apt for amateur),but I might be wrong.My ultimate aspiration was something like the Analog Precision,but it's lack of inherent software and very few taps deter me ! Do you use separate 8ch. active crossover for the IIR ?
I found an app. which is gratis and it's attributes at least as far as number of taps- Convolver ? a convolution plug-in consists of 65,535taps,but I'm not sure it is functioning with such a amount of taps for each stereo way out of the 4 way stereo ,bacause if so-the analog Precision might be the better candidate,although not cheap at all ! Another candidate could be: WAF-Audio but,regretfully has only 8,500taps for all 4 way stereo-which is quite low.
I aspire for as close as possible to 65k taps for the stereo subwoofers and at least similar amount of taps for the rest of the 3 way stereo-is it possible ?! Could the Ashly NE4800 be the solution-I'm not familiar with with it's qualities FIR capabilities ?! Is there any solution without the 8ch.USB dac ? it's so cumbersome -can't any Hi End manufacturers come up with a device consisting all of the above with 65k taps and 8ch.active crossover with IIR for a reasonable price and that is it ? Are you familiar with CAD AUDIO - DIGITAL RACK AMPLIFIERS out ofwhich their plate amp. class D DSA608 could be not bad for the subwoofers,although I'm not crazy about class D and I don't know anything about it's FIR or perhaps 2*PMA PC4M-4 way mono active crossover,but again don't know anything about it,or the other German company by the name of:High End Audio Technik Selbstbau which again I'm clueless about it's features about it's FIR capabilities,featutes and qualities ! What amplifiaction do you use ? or Multi-channel DAC Board. Gigalink data are loaded sequentially | Download Scientific Diagram
I found an app. which is gratis and it's attributes at least as far as number of taps- Convolver ? a convolution plug-in consists of 65,535taps,but I'm not sure it is functioning with such a amount of taps for each stereo way out of the 4 way stereo ,bacause if so-the analog Precision might be the better candidate,although not cheap at all ! Another candidate could be: WAF-Audio but,regretfully has only 8,500taps for all 4 way stereo-which is quite low.
I aspire for as close as possible to 65k taps for the stereo subwoofers and at least similar amount of taps for the rest of the 3 way stereo-is it possible ?! Could the Ashly NE4800 be the solution-I'm not familiar with with it's qualities FIR capabilities ?! Is there any solution without the 8ch.USB dac ? it's so cumbersome -can't any Hi End manufacturers come up with a device consisting all of the above with 65k taps and 8ch.active crossover with IIR for a reasonable price and that is it ? Are you familiar with CAD AUDIO - DIGITAL RACK AMPLIFIERS out ofwhich their plate amp. class D DSA608 could be not bad for the subwoofers,although I'm not crazy about class D and I don't know anything about it's FIR or perhaps 2*PMA PC4M-4 way mono active crossover,but again don't know anything about it,or the other German company by the name of:High End Audio Technik Selbstbau which again I'm clueless about it's features about it's FIR capabilities,featutes and qualities ! What amplifiaction do you use ? or Multi-channel DAC Board. Gigalink data are loaded sequentially | Download Scientific Diagram
Hi Best Hi End, if I may make a suggestion from reading your posts, it would probably pay you to get started with FIR as cheaply as possible before spending any real $$$.
I say this because, take your question about separate IIR... one of the greatest benefits of FIR is to embed all the IIR corrections into the FIR file. The only time you really need separate IIR is to minimize latency...which means you blend FIR tuning down to lowest frequency possible given latency requirements, and use IIR below that. Also, remember that the number of taps needed for good correction varies by frequency, where a doubling of freq requires 1/2 the taps of the previous octave... so there's no need for a high tap count for every channel. Look at FourAudio...their unit even downsamples the low freq channels, to counteract the doubling needed as freq drops.
My advice.... use the Convolver plugin you linked with JRiver or some similar program. (That's what I was using.) Or get a miniDSP DA-8...it would actually make for a better learning tool IMO. Pls forget notions about amateur, etc, for now. Download RePhase and build some FIR files from some measurements... Jump in, but cheaply for now
I apologize if you've already built FIR files and/or understand FIR better than I'm giving you credit for. But it sounds like learning might be more valuable than equipment right now. best, mark
I say this because, take your question about separate IIR... one of the greatest benefits of FIR is to embed all the IIR corrections into the FIR file. The only time you really need separate IIR is to minimize latency...which means you blend FIR tuning down to lowest frequency possible given latency requirements, and use IIR below that. Also, remember that the number of taps needed for good correction varies by frequency, where a doubling of freq requires 1/2 the taps of the previous octave... so there's no need for a high tap count for every channel. Look at FourAudio...their unit even downsamples the low freq channels, to counteract the doubling needed as freq drops.
My advice.... use the Convolver plugin you linked with JRiver or some similar program. (That's what I was using.) Or get a miniDSP DA-8...it would actually make for a better learning tool IMO. Pls forget notions about amateur, etc, for now. Download RePhase and build some FIR files from some measurements... Jump in, but cheaply for now
I apologize if you've already built FIR files and/or understand FIR better than I'm giving you credit for. But it sounds like learning might be more valuable than equipment right now. best, mark
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I turned out real dumb ,probably as a result of my persistent backache for the past half day which made me losing my focus.I know that all active crossover which have FIR have IIR ,while the opposite scenario doesn't necessarily work !
Regarding your notion of doubling the frequency requires 1/2 the taps-I lack some knowledge about it and if for eg.I intend to cover 20-200Hz for the subwoofers and for that I'd like 65k taps for these stereo sub woofers and second stage 200-800Hz for mid bass with 12' driver with it's pertinent horn-How many taps would I need for this second stage in order for it works out properly ? What unit were you referring on Four audio ?
My knowledge is currently more in theory than in practice,hence definitely need training,but I wouldn't like to spend money in vain for a device that will be soon frutile.
Regarding your notion of doubling the frequency requires 1/2 the taps-I lack some knowledge about it and if for eg.I intend to cover 20-200Hz for the subwoofers and for that I'd like 65k taps for these stereo sub woofers and second stage 200-800Hz for mid bass with 12' driver with it's pertinent horn-How many taps would I need for this second stage in order for it works out properly ? What unit were you referring on Four audio ?
My knowledge is currently more in theory than in practice,hence definitely need training,but I wouldn't like to spend money in vain for a device that will be soon frutile.
Here's a tech article from FourAudio about FIR resolution/requirements...Four Audio | FIR Filters: calculation power, length of impulse responses, and frequency resolution
Applies to their HD2 processor, maybe others too
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