Hey Zwiller;
I almost bought those and refrained since I have extra. I am glad you got them.
I had BRH90’s on top of my VB790’s (or possible variation that I can’t find a picture of in the Community literature, the vent is different) in my house garage and loved them.
What’s in your VB’s? My VB’s came loaded with EVML-15’s and I wasn’t knocked out by them. I didn’t know if it was the horn or the driver. I replaced that whole stack with a pair of Danley SH50’s on TH115’s and the VB’s sat for a couple of years.
I moved them to my work shop, swapped in a pair of JBL 2220J’s and topped them with RH60’s for tighter pattern control in the big cement box we work in and I am very happy with them.
BRH90’s are a really good sounding horn. What are you going to drive them with?
Barry.
I almost bought those and refrained since I have extra. I am glad you got them.
I had BRH90’s on top of my VB790’s (or possible variation that I can’t find a picture of in the Community literature, the vent is different) in my house garage and loved them.
What’s in your VB’s? My VB’s came loaded with EVML-15’s and I wasn’t knocked out by them. I didn’t know if it was the horn or the driver. I replaced that whole stack with a pair of Danley SH50’s on TH115’s and the VB’s sat for a couple of years.
I moved them to my work shop, swapped in a pair of JBL 2220J’s and topped them with RH60’s for tighter pattern control in the big cement box we work in and I am very happy with them.
BRH90’s are a really good sounding horn. What are you going to drive them with?
Barry.
Thanks for all the posts - I think we're getting somewhere, namely:
1 First of all the source material has to have it.
2 The sound system must be able to reproduce it nearly as loud as live with full bandwidth with the time / phase coherency and dynamics preserved.
3. Group delay.
Also some good system suggestions. Group delay interests me and not something I have previously considered, so I will read some more about this.
1 First of all the source material has to have it.
2 The sound system must be able to reproduce it nearly as loud as live with full bandwidth with the time / phase coherency and dynamics preserved.
3. Group delay.
Also some good system suggestions. Group delay interests me and not something I have previously considered, so I will read some more about this.
I've recently read that group delay is when the artists came late to their concert. 
Try to read about magnitude and phase response of loudspeakers, and also about listening room time (decay) and modal responses. First, divide the problem into the first factors, understand them well and then return with synthetic issues, for example "group delay".
Try to read about magnitude and phase response of loudspeakers, and also about listening room time (decay) and modal responses. First, divide the problem into the first factors, understand them well and then return with synthetic issues, for example "group delay".
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Enclosure effect on group delay - would seem that horns and open/infinite baffle design would be best, followed by other quarter wave style enclosures, a large sealed box and then finally bass-reflex / band pass being the worst performing.
This is what I've quickly garnered from the internet anyway.
My subjective listening impressions with an open baffle woofer (Linkwitz LX mini+2 in this case) was that an open baffle system provides considerably more realistic timbre to percussion than my transmission line speakers. Down side was the large amount of cone extension required to provide decent SPL compared to my transmission line speakers. I have never listened to horns, so would be interested to do so now.
If my above understanding is correct, then the issue of group delay goes some way towards providing a technical underpinning as to why percussion from, say, a large sealed box with high efficiency drivers, Low mass, low Qts is often touted as being better than a typical commercial mass produced bass-reflex design (even though the claimed frequency response could be identical).
This goes back to what Circlomanen provided right back at the beginning of this topic.
Obviously lots of other design considerations as well, but I think this potentially addresses my initial question.
This is what I've quickly garnered from the internet anyway.
My subjective listening impressions with an open baffle woofer (Linkwitz LX mini+2 in this case) was that an open baffle system provides considerably more realistic timbre to percussion than my transmission line speakers. Down side was the large amount of cone extension required to provide decent SPL compared to my transmission line speakers. I have never listened to horns, so would be interested to do so now.
If my above understanding is correct, then the issue of group delay goes some way towards providing a technical underpinning as to why percussion from, say, a large sealed box with high efficiency drivers, Low mass, low Qts is often touted as being better than a typical commercial mass produced bass-reflex design (even though the claimed frequency response could be identical).
This goes back to what Circlomanen provided right back at the beginning of this topic.
Obviously lots of other design considerations as well, but I think this potentially addresses my initial question.
Once again good stuff from Linkwitz
Group Delay and transient response
Victor Staggs wrote to me about group delay distortion effects at the low end of a loudspeaker's frequency response:
"... I only claim that the group delay is audible for signals containing transients with sufficient energy at low frequencies. I wouldn’t expect to hear the effects of group delay in pipe organ music, for instance."
There is also comment that group delay could therefore affected the spatial aspects and clarity of music, but less in terms of timbre. Sounds logical.
Group Delay and transient response
Victor Staggs wrote to me about group delay distortion effects at the low end of a loudspeaker's frequency response:
"... I only claim that the group delay is audible for signals containing transients with sufficient energy at low frequencies. I wouldn’t expect to hear the effects of group delay in pipe organ music, for instance."
There is also comment that group delay could therefore affected the spatial aspects and clarity of music, but less in terms of timbre. Sounds logical.
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Yup, choose woofers that work well in boxes tuned below 30hz. Also nice if the output is comfortable above 110db in a typical home listening room.
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I remember from the other thread we both have the keystone port VB790's. Yes, EVML15 in mine. I like mine but always looking for improvement. Sounds like you have ALOT more experience than I... Will probably keep EV and DH1A for the BRH. Plentiful and cheap here. Are those Leviathons really like 500lb? Thought I read that.
Steve Clarke's "Solo Drums" CD contains two solo works, each around 20 minutes in length - its probably better than the old (and boring) Sheffield recording.
the shame is the best old school jazz drummers not always having the best recording quality - it had to exist in the days of good 30 ips reel to reel machines - musically, someone like Bellson in a small ensemble was hard to top.
there ought to be some good drummers who would be glad to make a reference recording.
Dan Weiss' "Tintal" is an interesting album with tabla pieces translated to western drum kit - the role of the harmonium drone taken over by a Fender Stratocaster.
Indian music of that type often has very little space between flurries of notes so little fullrange and multiway speakers will struggle and fail miserably
at any level that approaches 1/10 - 1/100 of live dynamics.
here's a bit how Clarke plays (use headphones to hear how its panned)
YouTube
the CD cover
the shame is the best old school jazz drummers not always having the best recording quality - it had to exist in the days of good 30 ips reel to reel machines - musically, someone like Bellson in a small ensemble was hard to top.
there ought to be some good drummers who would be glad to make a reference recording.
Dan Weiss' "Tintal" is an interesting album with tabla pieces translated to western drum kit - the role of the harmonium drone taken over by a Fender Stratocaster.
Indian music of that type often has very little space between flurries of notes so little fullrange and multiway speakers will struggle and fail miserably
at any level that approaches 1/10 - 1/100 of live dynamics.
here's a bit how Clarke plays (use headphones to hear how its panned)
YouTube
the CD cover
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You can't have this conversation without mentioning Gale 401 speakers.
So there I did it.
Designed by Ira Gale who was a percussionist/tympanaist as well as an audio engineer.
Speakers with wonderful slam ,groove and texture.
Other than them the RCF l15/554K 15 inch woofer sounds fantastic.It has a very high Force Factor [BL around 23] and a reasonably low moving mass .Needs a bit a of EQ for low bass though.
So there I did it.
Designed by Ira Gale who was a percussionist/tympanaist as well as an audio engineer.
Speakers with wonderful slam ,groove and texture.
Other than them the RCF l15/554K 15 inch woofer sounds fantastic.It has a very high Force Factor [BL around 23] and a reasonably low moving mass .Needs a bit a of EQ for low bass though.
And so it begins...
Nice selections but those are of the "studio magic" close mic'd variety. There are some good older jazz examples (sax is too hot IMO). YouTube
Not definitive by any means but I always thought these were a good take on the kit: YouTube
In the interest of complete disclosure I prefer live music and one of my reference tunes is (and yeah it does sound like the Kinks are actually in my basement if you crank it enough/favorite part is breakdown at 2:37):
YouTube
Nice selections but those are of the "studio magic" close mic'd variety. There are some good older jazz examples (sax is too hot IMO). YouTube
Not definitive by any means but I always thought these were a good take on the kit: YouTube
In the interest of complete disclosure I prefer live music and one of my reference tunes is (and yeah it does sound like the Kinks are actually in my basement if you crank it enough/favorite part is breakdown at 2:37):
YouTube
(yeah that Clarke mix is "polite") I've not gotten out for decades and live music wasn't very live for small bands running everything through PA. I know a proper snare rim shot will cause my eyes to blink - that's the kind of momentary peak dynamics which would be good to have. That Cheap Trick mix is ok but weak too (using T50RP cans - "Indeed" style headphone amp) where are the good recordings of drums? (I have ~100 tabla CDs, John French and a few interesting drumkit CDs)
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I have heard much good about the DH1A’s. I have never owned a any.
I try not to be a total JBL fanboy and really do give other stuff a fighting chance. 2220’s in a mid bass horn just seem unbeatable, still.
The Levi’s I can double stack myself if I bust my balls. It’s the Boxer’s that are just silly heavy. Two of us layed one of them down and honestly we only controlled its fall. I use a pallet jack for them.
Barry.
Horn loaded or direct radiator, the JBL 2123 is nearly unbeatable for the above. It can make a sharp snare hit feel like the enamel on your teeth will crack.
The TAD 12” graphite cone driver is amazing as well but unobtainium.
Barry.
Perhaps the first block to hearing life like percussion at home might be most recordings? Recording gear may be much better these days but the fashion for using dynamic compression seems to particularly squash the impact of percussive transients. You might want to make your own recordings of live events. Some Youtube videos have audio that seems less squashed then commercial releases eg
YouTube
Its easy to extract the audio as mp3 - although lossy its funny how it can sound better then lossless releases that professional sound engineers have "improved".
Then the next block is having a system that can hit the transients. Some horn systems seem to have an inherent advantage in my very little experience although I couldn't be bothered
YouTube
YouTube
Its easy to extract the audio as mp3 - although lossy its funny how it can sound better then lossless releases that professional sound engineers have "improved".
Then the next block is having a system that can hit the transients. Some horn systems seem to have an inherent advantage in my very little experience although I couldn't be bothered
YouTube
Just to add the I found this thread very useful.
Folded horn sound quality?
Seems that the concept of minimum phase bass response is also a concept that requires consideration (page 8 of the thread).
Folded horn sound quality?
Seems that the concept of minimum phase bass response is also a concept that requires consideration (page 8 of the thread).
This is the reason we split the signal to frequency bands and feed them to different drivers. For instance: 1. 10-100 Hz a bass driver able to displace its cone sufficiently in the given cabinet - all requirements here are to be able to reproduce flat the furthest down towards infrasound. - If it can reproduce 100 Hz with a tolerable level of distortion, then it is fast enough. Fast enough means enough power to weight ratio. Thus in the bass region the power to weight ratio allows for a very wide rande of drivers. Thus making the enclosure alignment more critical and the leading consideration. Mms 40 to 250 grams, Bl 7 to 25. 2. 100-1000 Hz, also could be 85-800 Hz or 100-5000 or even up to 6-7-8000 in some cases. Here we have the widest available range of power to weight ratios and also sizes. Mms could be anywhere from 2-3 or 5 grams to 40-50, Bl 3 to 25 in extreme cases. Almost anything can reproduce flat to below 200 Hz and have any Qts and be enclosed or OB. In come cases high Qts midbasses won’t tolerate small boxes below 30-40L, but would happily play on OB. Most powerful midbass drivers would cover that region in any acoustic alignment and enclosure. 3. 500-5000 Hz, sometimes 800-8000 Hz, also wide range of available drivers, but not so wide as the previous point. Mms from 2-3 to 15-20 grams and BL from 2-3 to 10-12 enclosure here is not a factor, not even OB, because the operation band in most cases lies in the baffle step plato of the half space radiation. 4. Tweeters from 3-4000 to infinity, in a 4-way system typically from at least 5000 Hz onwards, Mms from fractions of the gram for ribbons to 1-2 grams.
Now we split the said non symmetric, non sinusoidal signal into those 4 bands and have it all, the required displacement and the required power to weight ratio.
And here are the particulars: The speed of hand with the biggest possible rollout is up to 108 Mph or 174 Kph: Fastball - Wikipedia Nota Bene: The initial speed of the hit only governs the initial sound, but the drum fundamental depends on the skin tightness and it's natural resonating frequency. Drummers do not have the rollout of a baseball player, so they hit the drum set with lower speed. Except for single hits. The fastest drummers manage up to 1200 hits per minute two hands: YouTube World's Fastest Drummer - Wikipedia
It is evident from the video that the strokes are 10 cm/4 in travel one way 600x20/60/2 makes a mere 1m/s or 2 m/s peak Some manage 900 hits with 30 cm travel one way: 450x60/60/2 makes 2.25 m/s average, or supposed 4.5 m/s peak
With kick drums we have around 1:3 overdrive gearing, but let's say it's 1:4. The fastest a leg can move is around 40 km/h and this is when running or jumping. So, let's assume the exaggerated speed of 160 km/h or 100 mph which equals the speed of a baseball hitting the drum. 160000/3600 makes for 44.4 m/s speed Calculating from speed to Hertz is a hard task, but not impossible, only you have to bring in some real world data. The maximum reported SPL of a kick drum is 145 dB. A 26 in kick drum has Sd of 3423 cm2, but it's edge is stationary and it's center is at xmax. If we assume 1/2 Sd this makes for an Sd of 1700. A driver with Sd 1700 and xmax of 1.2 cm will do 145 db at no less than 200 Hz, and that number is even higher when we consider that the effective Sd or xmax are even lower. Traveling 1.2 cm with 44m/s will take 0.0002727 seconds. Or a full cycle is 0.0005454 seconds. One second contains 1833,5 such periods. In reality, the approximation of the events in a kick drum should be split in many steps/iterations as the head and skin slow down each other. Thus driving the initial "attack" further up in frequency. This is good, because the correct reproduction of the kick will not and in fact does not require such enormous displacements, nor accelerating a heavy driver membrane this much.
-> Now there is a twist in the story: A kick drum has two skins, driving one and driven one, to this moment I was referring only to the driving skin, which is tighter. The front skin is driven by the pressure in the drum body and gives the actual soft and low sound of the drum. -> In an approximately exactly sinusoidal manner. It is just an oscillator.
Conclusion: a relatively flat and phase coherent system of any kind can and will reproduce any kick drum that it is required to. We should have in mind that microphone placement is critical, because both the initial kick sound and the subsequent oscillations travel to the microphone with the speed of sound, so a microphone placed inside a drum will receive the signals slightly different than they actually occurred.
Conclusion.2.: A bass driver is required to do nothing more than reproduce it's own frequency band. Anything faster than that is of the responsibility of the other drivers.
As I said: YouTube
The fundamentals can be seen between 50 and 100 Hz and also the attack is there around 2 kHz and above as I calculated.
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The usual and much too common engineering-oversimplification.
If "a relatively flat and phase coherent system of any kind" could reproduce a kick drum with any true fidelity then why would anyone ever buy or build something larger then a Dirac processed 6,5 + 1 inch bookshelf loudspeaker?
I would love to see any combination of "faster" frequencies reproduce a highly unsymmetrical and nonlinear bass waveform. Music is very seldom a linear and symmetrical sine wave or combination of sine waves. It is highly unsymmetrical and nonlinear.
Compare this to what the suspensions of a car has to handle on a real world road.
It is very easy to design car suspensions to handle single or periodic soft sinusoidal "bumps" in the road, but much more complex and difficult to make those suspensions handle holes in the road or sharp edges, often overlapping in a short non periodic series and often combined with a turning and leaning road surface. A hole only goes one way. There is no nice sinusoidal complete curve to a sudden hole in the asphalt, even though the the might have the same "wave length" as a nice rounded "bump".
The first block is that the whole premise of reproduction is ridiculous when you think about it.
You can't take what a mic (say, a cardiod for illustration) picks up in one spot in a studio or hall and "release" it from a point in your living room believing it will bring the whole studio or hall sound into your room.
What you can do is produce a sound in your room that you like in your room. If you feel that transients of a reproduced glockenspiel lack some aspect of the delight the real-thing provides, then you fix your system.... which is what the thread is about.
I wish people would stop making pious-sounding but naive pronouncements about "accurate" reproduction.
B.
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