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horn sub(s) for WE13a horns?
horn sub(s) for WE13a horns?
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Old 11th October 2018, 11:01 PM   #1
noviygera is offline noviygera  United States
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Default horn sub(s) for WE13a horns?

As everyone knows, the WE13a are 14ft long, curled horns that play down to about 100hz.


I plan to get these going in my music room. Now the question is what should I consider for a subwoofer(s) to complement the 13a horns below 100hz.
My room is about 550sq.ft. / 51 sq.m.

Open baffle and infinite baffle bass is out of question for me. My first thought would be a single 14 ft. long bass horn, for proper time alignment. What are your thoughts on this and particularly, what do you guys think I can get out of a 14' long bass horn?

thanks,
Herman
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Old 12th October 2018, 04:45 AM   #2
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Herman,

You could get as much as 20- 200 Hz from a 14' FLH.

Art
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Old 12th October 2018, 09:58 PM   #3
noviygera is offline noviygera  United States
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Default Horn sub

I would even be happy with 30-200hz!

If that is the case, I would seriously consider going with a horn sub. It may be a single unit, placed between the

Other than modeling the horn in HornResp, which I have not used before, what would be my next step in getting this project moving along? Driver selection?
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Old 14th October 2018, 07:36 PM   #4
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Herman,

There are quite a few design considerations in integrating a horn system. In room measurement of the pair of the WE13a would be a good start for the project. Once you determine what the levels to match (or exceed) are, you narrow down what is required to "keep up".

Although the thread below degenerated into some personal squabbles, it also presented a number of models and alternatives along the lines of what you may be looking for, other than the construction material the OP likes to work with ;^) :

Concrete Bass Horn Design Question

Art

Last edited by weltersys; 14th October 2018 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 17th October 2018, 03:05 AM   #5
noviygera is offline noviygera  United States
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Art,

thanks for the tip. That's quite a read. Only when I have the 13a horns, will I be able to measure them in my room. This is a project that will take about 6 months to complete.
The 12pi basshorns is the closest off the shelf product that I have found:
Pi Speakers, Subwoofers, 12Pi basshorn subwoofer

However, the horn path length is 9.3 feet. This is not close enough to my target of 14 feet. I suppose 12-14 would be close enough to match the horn path lengths in my listening space.

Given that design "constant" I would like to get some help when designing this horn. Anyone around here qualified for this task?
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Old 17th October 2018, 03:43 AM   #6
GM is offline GM  United States
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Might have a 'close enough' design, an early Lansing/Altec 30 Hz horn designed for the original 515, which its ~functional equivalent, the Altec/GPA 515-8G sims just fine in it, though at 16+ ft needs to be shortened a bit, winding up with a ~34.18 Hz flare frequency/30 Hz/F6 according to HR:

GM
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File Type: txt 515-8g_34Hz_FLH.txt (1.0 KB, 48 views)
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Old 17th October 2018, 04:39 AM   #7
noviygera is offline noviygera  United States
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Cool, GM! Do you have a link to that horn? Would not the light cone of the Altec 515 deform under pressure in a long horn?
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Old 17th October 2018, 06:11 AM   #8
GM is offline GM  United States
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No, all I did was load the details of it from the Badmaieff, Davis book "How to build Speaker Enclosures".

Not really, it only has a 1.76:1 compression ratio plus the 515's cone is quite stiff, i.e. they were designed for bass horn loading in general and the original Lansing [Altec] 515 and 8G in particular. For sure, I've loaded 515Bs at 2:1 with no audible issues at > its 35 W [continuous] rating up to 100+W transients in the mid bass/lower mids. Factor in that Xmax will limit it to ~10 W down low where it's just 'loafing' along at ~115 dB/30 Hz/2pi and have a fair amount of overdrive capability before distortion becomes obvious, so 120 dB/32 Hz for those Jimmy Smith Hammond notes seems a reasonable expectation.

If this isn't enough, there's more modern drivers with similar specs and much higher power handling, but using a driver from the same 'family' is a nice 'touch' for the W.E. horns since the multiple 18"FC woofer OB system isn't an option.

AFAIK, Hornresp calculates all the pertinent dims to build it and let's you choose height/width ratio, though if the 14 ft includes the driver box, then somewhere near the throat you'll have to put a kink in it to angle it up enough to clear the wall/whatever.

Anyway, others more familiar with this tool can help with it.

GM
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Old 17th October 2018, 06:22 AM   #9
hollowboy is offline hollowboy  Australia
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Questions and comments:

1) This doesn't matter:
Quote:
Originally Posted by noviygera View Post
The 12pi basshorns is the closest off the shelf product that I have found [...]
However, the horn path length is 9.3 feet. This is not close enough to my target of 14 feet.
You can physically time align horns of different lengths - this is stated in the usage notes for the 12pi. Just place the devices so that the path length between the sources and your ears is equal.

e.g. if the WE13a horns are 14' long, and the mouths are 6' from your head, the sound will have to travel 20' in total to get to you ...so you'd simply position the 12pi bass horns with their mouths 10.7 feet from your head, so the sound from them will also have to travel 20' in total to get to you.

2) You have a DSP, and you like it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by noviygera View Post
I have not compared to MiniDSP. However, the DSP-6 sounds very good. [...] Noise floor is extremely low, probably much lower than any tube amp.
Does the DSP-6 have delay?

If yes, then it doesn't matter at all whether your system is physically time aligned.

3) If you are considering a straight sub, you must have a lot of room. So why use folded horns for the range above?

Horn folding is usually a space-saving compromise.

4) More reading. The concrete bass horn linked above never got built (AFAIK), but it prompted me to hunt for info on the (real) 15' long "artichoke" horn, which in turn prompted my own build. Info here: Artichoke Horn
Note that, for indoor use, you can scale down the mouth size, compared to these outdoor builds. That is: the length of the artichoke horn + the mouth size of my horn (4'x4') would be about right.

5) Get Hornresp and play with it. It is very good.
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Old 17th October 2018, 06:49 AM   #10
GM is offline GM  United States
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Hmm, a 30 Hz flare, 14 ft axial length expo horn placed between the WE horns in 2pi space requires a ~41.43 ft perimeter mouth to be flat to nearly 30 Hz according to HR, so in retrospect might not fit in the room.

So, at this point, guess we need much more dimensional details to see what can realistically be done and/or what compromises he's willing to accept such as building it as a false [rear] wall in a bi-fold layout to load either a centrally located full height mouth to get a somewhat 0.5 pi loading or at both corners with much smaller full height slot mouths and use DSP to align them.

GM
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