Hi you all,
This will be my first post around here but I have been reading quite some threads.
I was thinking for a folded horn design that needs to cover the bass and upper bass (from around 50-60 to 200-250Hz)
Some sort of kickbin. My experience so far with that frequency range is that a 15" drivers sounds very good.
Ofcourse it depends alot of the driver and design but in general I like the sound that a good 15" driver can produce.
If they are horn loaded I like it even more
the headroom and the transients....
(I have build 16 punisher horns in the past and powered with 1kw/ punisher it's insane.... You need a lot of BR boxes and power to do the same,)
So I was thinking that getting to around 50-60Hz with a folded 15" horn doesn't has to be that extremely large
So i was searching and came across a design from the old fane speaker book
Fane 1x15 Folded Horn | Ubertino Landi di Chiavenna | Flickr or you can find the book here http://www.ozvalveamps.org/cabinets/fane-loudspeaker-book-pages-26-33.pdf and there the last 2 pages.
Searching further I also came across this horn from cowan called the Horn sub JR
Horn Subwoofer
They are not that different from each other
So I ran some hornresp simulations on the cowan design.
It will not be corner loaded so the last section was removed from the simulation.
The driver I would want to use is the Beyma 15P80ND.
QTS is only 0.178 and the EBP is 181.
BL is 24.3 so I think it would be a great horn driver
Xmax is 7.5mm.
Xlim is 26mm.
So My first simulation gave this
I think it's actually quite good. The enclosure is only 60cm x 60cm x 70cm
It does 101db at 50Hz. After that it goes down relatively fast.
The driver is rated for 800w aes and 1600w peak.
So when used for continues operating (800w) i get the next simulation.
So that gives 135db of output. Falling to 130db around 50Hz.
It still does 125db at 40Hz ....so a little bit Eq is possible.
Simulating the 15P80ND in a BR enclosure only gets me to 122db at 40Hz....
Looking at the excursion it goes a little over Xmax around 80Hz but it's only 0.5mm so not a big problem.
Even without a Highpass filter the woofer is well within the Xdamage Limit altough I would not do that.
Now if I would use 4 of those boxes stacked together at full power then the simulation changes to this
That is over 140db...
It goes a bit lower also (around 45Hz)
Xmax is also reduced a little bit
You can even push further and use 1600w peak for each driver resulting in 145db... but xmax goes up. Still below Xdamag but a little bit over Xmax so distortion will rise a little bit.
So what do you guys think of this horn design? altough a little bit "outdated". Using a modern speaker I think it could work and still be transportable.
There will be some compression loss at high power but I think it will go very loud. And most of the alround music at small parties will not lose that much extention.
And what abou tthe upper extention? I would like to cross at around 200-250Hz
Looking at the graphs I think it would be possible
This will be my first post around here but I have been reading quite some threads.
I was thinking for a folded horn design that needs to cover the bass and upper bass (from around 50-60 to 200-250Hz)
Some sort of kickbin. My experience so far with that frequency range is that a 15" drivers sounds very good.
Ofcourse it depends alot of the driver and design but in general I like the sound that a good 15" driver can produce.
If they are horn loaded I like it even more
the headroom and the transients....(I have build 16 punisher horns in the past and powered with 1kw/ punisher it's insane.... You need a lot of BR boxes and power to do the same,)
So I was thinking that getting to around 50-60Hz with a folded 15" horn doesn't has to be that extremely large
So i was searching and came across a design from the old fane speaker book
Fane 1x15 Folded Horn | Ubertino Landi di Chiavenna | Flickr or you can find the book here http://www.ozvalveamps.org/cabinets/fane-loudspeaker-book-pages-26-33.pdf and there the last 2 pages.
Searching further I also came across this horn from cowan called the Horn sub JR
Horn Subwoofer
They are not that different from each other
So I ran some hornresp simulations on the cowan design.
It will not be corner loaded so the last section was removed from the simulation.
The driver I would want to use is the Beyma 15P80ND.
QTS is only 0.178 and the EBP is 181.
BL is 24.3 so I think it would be a great horn driver
Xmax is 7.5mm.
Xlim is 26mm.
So My first simulation gave this
I think it's actually quite good. The enclosure is only 60cm x 60cm x 70cm
It does 101db at 50Hz. After that it goes down relatively fast.
The driver is rated for 800w aes and 1600w peak.
So when used for continues operating (800w) i get the next simulation.
So that gives 135db of output. Falling to 130db around 50Hz.
It still does 125db at 40Hz ....so a little bit Eq is possible.
Simulating the 15P80ND in a BR enclosure only gets me to 122db at 40Hz....
Looking at the excursion it goes a little over Xmax around 80Hz but it's only 0.5mm so not a big problem.
Even without a Highpass filter the woofer is well within the Xdamage Limit altough I would not do that.
Now if I would use 4 of those boxes stacked together at full power then the simulation changes to this
That is over 140db...
It goes a bit lower also (around 45Hz)
Xmax is also reduced a little bit
You can even push further and use 1600w peak for each driver resulting in 145db... but xmax goes up. Still below Xdamag but a little bit over Xmax so distortion will rise a little bit.
So what do you guys think of this horn design? altough a little bit "outdated". Using a modern speaker I think it could work and still be transportable.
There will be some compression loss at high power but I think it will go very loud. And most of the alround music at small parties will not lose that much extention.
And what abou tthe upper extention? I would like to cross at around 200-250Hz
Looking at the graphs I think it would be possible
Hi
So a little update on this.
I made the cab a little bit bigger (70*70*74)to fit under my tractrix 5mr450 horn.
I made 1 testcab.
It goes up to 300Hz without big problems.
The low goes to around 45Hz and EQ to 40Hz is possible.
It is quite sensitive also.
First test was with an 18sound 15w1200 I had around. 15p80 should arrive this week
I will update this and give some Photo's etc when I can....
Also, I still have to measure the response outdoor when the weather s ok.
So a little update on this.
I made the cab a little bit bigger (70*70*74)to fit under my tractrix 5mr450 horn.
I made 1 testcab.
It goes up to 300Hz without big problems.
The low goes to around 45Hz and EQ to 40Hz is possible.
It is quite sensitive also.
First test was with an 18sound 15w1200 I had around. 15p80 should arrive this week
I will update this and give some Photo's etc when I can....
Also, I still have to measure the response outdoor when the weather s ok.
I did a w bin with a Fane 15-300TC and I like the sound of it.
Its output is beyond bass as well though.
fane_diagram | Folded horn Fane cabinet | harrabylad | Flickr
Its output is beyond bass as well though.
fane_diagram | Folded horn Fane cabinet | harrabylad | Flickr
The Visaton MB115-B kit also looks good and is affordable.
What I like is it can be used to around 500hz which would be perfect for integrating with a midrange horn like the original Edgar Tractrix midrange
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...hive/mb-115b&usg=AOvVaw26HadQPe517EUH0LbUS94k
What I like is it can be used to around 500hz which would be perfect for integrating with a midrange horn like the original Edgar Tractrix midrange
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...hive/mb-115b&usg=AOvVaw26HadQPe517EUH0LbUS94k
(I have Bruce's 250Hz tractrix from the late 1980's) - is "this" the correct plan for that Visaton horn ?
https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/11/05/75/44/turbo_10.jpg
https://i.servimg.com/u/f45/11/05/75/44/turbo_10.jpg
Yes that seems to be the Visaton one.
I have the original Edgar 500Hz horn using the Dynaudio D54std dome midrange.
If I was needing a 250hz crossover the 186 horn for the Precision Devices PD 1850 18 inch woofer might be a better choice-although those drivers are expensive .
Hi,
Sorry for the delay.
I Needed to nuild a second one and get the system with the 5mr450 tractrix horns on top finished in a hurry because I needed them for a small halloween party last weekend.
The paint was just dry when they where setup.....
I have no pictures yet but hope to have some soon.
First of all don't forget the bracing. I didn't have time but I will do it in the future.
It really is needed as panels will vibrate with ease.
If you use them in singles expect output to 45hz without EQ and if you have power to spare EQ down to 40hz is possible.
I crossed them at 220Hz. Didn't fine adjust because of time constraints.
They are loud, In singles I EQ'd the 100-200Hz region a little bit down with a very low Q to even it out with the lower bass.
Even without bracing They didn't sound really honky.
The punch was great especially on 90's dance music wich was the main music for the party.
For most normal people it goes low enough and pounds very loud. I did use A big amplifier so I had power to spare (1200w for 1 cab). The amplifier was just showing -20db and ocasionally on very loud moments -10db.
Personally when used as a single cab I like something underneath it.
I used the 5mr450 tractrix horns as tops, They where poweren from an inkel MA610 and the Meters barely moved.
The system was clean and punchy altough it missed something on the very top end wich I expected. The midrange was very nice.
I only had a 2 way system and it sounded nice and punchy. Not perfect but a lot better then most of the plastic little crap .......
And the dynamics......
Also it reallly gets the sound out al the way to the other side of the room.
When you showed the visaton horn I think it's nice that it can go to 500Hz but this is -10db. Also it only goes to 50Hz (-10db).
The folds are less extreme so cleaner sounding but the compression is not so high and as a result the sensitivity is not so high for a horn.
For simulation I think most of the time the front of the speaker is front volume and the horn starts in the first turn
So I need to do some bracing and set up a measurement outside when my neighbours are gone.....
I also will test what 2 stacked together can do
Still more to come.... only need time
Sorry for the delay.
I Needed to nuild a second one and get the system with the 5mr450 tractrix horns on top finished in a hurry because I needed them for a small halloween party last weekend.
The paint was just dry when they where setup.....
I have no pictures yet but hope to have some soon.
First of all don't forget the bracing. I didn't have time but I will do it in the future.
It really is needed as panels will vibrate with ease.
If you use them in singles expect output to 45hz without EQ and if you have power to spare EQ down to 40hz is possible.
I crossed them at 220Hz. Didn't fine adjust because of time constraints.
They are loud, In singles I EQ'd the 100-200Hz region a little bit down with a very low Q to even it out with the lower bass.
Even without bracing They didn't sound really honky.
The punch was great especially on 90's dance music wich was the main music for the party.
For most normal people it goes low enough and pounds very loud. I did use A big amplifier so I had power to spare (1200w for 1 cab). The amplifier was just showing -20db and ocasionally on very loud moments -10db.
Personally when used as a single cab I like something underneath it.
I used the 5mr450 tractrix horns as tops, They where poweren from an inkel MA610 and the Meters barely moved.
The system was clean and punchy altough it missed something on the very top end wich I expected. The midrange was very nice.
I only had a 2 way system and it sounded nice and punchy. Not perfect but a lot better then most of the plastic little crap .......
And the dynamics......
Also it reallly gets the sound out al the way to the other side of the room.
When you showed the visaton horn I think it's nice that it can go to 500Hz but this is -10db. Also it only goes to 50Hz (-10db).
The folds are less extreme so cleaner sounding but the compression is not so high and as a result the sensitivity is not so high for a horn.
For simulation I think most of the time the front of the speaker is front volume and the horn starts in the first turn
So I need to do some bracing and set up a measurement outside when my neighbours are gone.....
I also will test what 2 stacked together can do
Still more to come.... only need time
Ok so it has been some time
Last weekend I had the chance to make some measurements so here they are,
First the raw response with a lo pass at 200Hz
That doesn't look to bad actually. Need to investigate why the dips are there but I think it's because it needs bracing.
Mind you this was measured standing on the grass not against a wall. There was a wall at one side at a few meters.
So 40Hz is really no problem at all
I was hoping to reach 50Hz but seems like it goes a little bit lower. I really didn't expect this from 1 Cab standing on the grass.
Speaker used was the Beyma 15p80
Microphone was calibrated and to get to that level the amp didn't even blink a signal lamp so it was at very low power
So next up I added a High pass at 40Hz and a little bit of eq.
Only that nasty dip.... for the rest it looks great.
Next up is to add bracing and wait untill the neighbours are gone to put some more power on it.
Last weekend I had the chance to make some measurements so here they are,
First the raw response with a lo pass at 200Hz
That doesn't look to bad actually. Need to investigate why the dips are there but I think it's because it needs bracing.
Mind you this was measured standing on the grass not against a wall. There was a wall at one side at a few meters.
So 40Hz is really no problem at all
I was hoping to reach 50Hz but seems like it goes a little bit lower. I really didn't expect this from 1 Cab standing on the grass.
Speaker used was the Beyma 15p80
Microphone was calibrated and to get to that level the amp didn't even blink a signal lamp so it was at very low power
So next up I added a High pass at 40Hz and a little bit of eq.
Only that nasty dip.... for the rest it looks great.
Next up is to add bracing and wait untill the neighbours are gone to put some more power on it.
Hi, after a while, do you have now some pictures of your bass horns? I am planning to build the FANE 1-15 Horn in a double version for EDM applications. I know the FANE 1-15 Horn very well, build them in the early 90's and with good bracing they sound very clean and tight..
So my idea is to build a double 15 inch cabinet based on the FANE 1-15 fold, like the style of a F1 215mk1, meaning they will have a shared horn mouth. Dimensions will be max. 1220mm high x 550mm width x 650mm depth.
On top I am designing a 12 inch mid low and 2 inch mid high and a tweeter for highs above 5K
the 12 inch will have a horn in a form like a 5 gallon bucket with phase plug..
Will be continued..
So my idea is to build a double 15 inch cabinet based on the FANE 1-15 fold, like the style of a F1 215mk1, meaning they will have a shared horn mouth. Dimensions will be max. 1220mm high x 550mm width x 650mm depth.
On top I am designing a 12 inch mid low and 2 inch mid high and a tweeter for highs above 5K
the 12 inch will have a horn in a form like a 5 gallon bucket with phase plug..
Will be continued..
Hi Vintage and Paco.
Ive been measuring quite alot of edm ,techno lately and I'm getting main kick and bass synth coming in at 43,47,51& 54 hertz. 1 octave lower Sub harmonics are usually at 15-20 db down from the fundamental.
I'm also seeing first harmonics around 100-115 hz with 1-3 db more energy than the main kick/synth.
HTH.
Ive been measuring quite alot of edm ,techno lately and I'm getting main kick and bass synth coming in at 43,47,51& 54 hertz. 1 octave lower Sub harmonics are usually at 15-20 db down from the fundamental.
I'm also seeing first harmonics around 100-115 hz with 1-3 db more energy than the main kick/synth.
HTH.
Top Shelf,
In both acoustic and synthesized instruments it is common to have the fundamental frequency level far lower than it's harmonics, though with EQ and synthesizers any harmonic relationship is possible.
You seem to be calling the fundamental frequency a "Sub harmonic".
The lowest frequency produced by any instrument or synthesizer is known as the fundamental frequency. The fundamental frequency may also be called the first harmonic of the instrument, while the second and higher harmonics are multiples of the fundamental (first harmonic). Even order harmonics are all octaves.
A "first harmonic" around 115 Hz in most current EDM or techno would probably belong to a "snare" rather than a "kick" drum sound
.Art
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