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Missing fundamental bass
Missing fundamental bass
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Old 15th May 2018, 09:59 AM   #11
wonderfulaudio is offline wonderfulaudio  India
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The technique works only for 'extending' bass by 1.5 octaves. This can be scaled for any lower cutoff/driver combination
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Old 16th May 2018, 03:04 AM   #12
wg_ski is offline wg_ski  United States
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Originally Posted by cyberstudio View Post
Actually, the brain is really good at reconstructing missing fundamentals. That's why speakers lacking low-end extension, let's say falling off relatively early beginning at 200Hz, still sound like music. You can still hear bass notes you know the speaker can't possibly be actually playing. Even without chip enhancement or processing.
It can actually sound like the fundamental is there if you drive the woofer symmetrically past x-max. It will generate the necessary 3rd and 5th harmonics. Really works best if the sub/woofer is separately powered - so the distortion doesn't get into your midrange and give away the fact that you're listening to distortion.
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Old 16th May 2018, 07:00 AM   #13
wonderfulaudio is offline wonderfulaudio  India
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Thats interesting find, just a non linear driver/motor needed. However, the driver the fundamental has to be present to create the harmonics, then the point is moot
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Old 16th May 2018, 02:45 PM   #14
kevinmcdonough is offline kevinmcdonough
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Originally Posted by wonderfulaudio View Post
Thanks wg_ski. Harmonic bass enhancers 'simulate' bass by harmonics. Other things being equal this results in a drastically smaller system.

The ones from the pro audio field are quite the opposite, they increase LF content and need bigger boxes and bigger amps, I believe by as much as 4 times.

Yeah, as said the types of bass enhancers people are referring to can be divided into 2 main categories.

Firstly units that actually simulate extra, lower octave bass, and add it into he program material. The downside of these is that, while some units can do this well, your sound system has to be able to produce this extra bass for it to be effective. Really easy to overdrive your subs and give yourself problems.

The kind the OP is referencing adds upper harmonics of the bass notes into the audio, and your brain oes a very good job of filling in the missing root note that should be there based on the pattern of harmonics. Waves makes the most well known of these units, both in plugin form and in a hardware unit which I own. (there is another hardware unit that works the same way, can't remember what one it is). You can actually up your high pass a little and take a little of the train off your subs with these ones, or use it to bring out some bass and some fullness in a less than capable system.

It's definitely intended for Pro audio rather than home, and as long as you use it just to fill out the bottom end and don't try and be too crazy with it it works really well.

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Old 23rd May 2018, 07:03 AM   #15
Lunchietey is offline Lunchietey  Australia
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Originally Posted by wg_ski View Post
I'm pretty sure the OP was wanting to 'simulate' low bass instead of adding it. Adding low bass results in more power and subwoofage requirements, not less.

The ultrabass ( or dB 120A, or similar) is quite the opposite of the Maxxbass. If you're not carefull a true sub-synth can blow woofers, where bass enhancers try to make life easier for the woofers while creating the illusion of low bass.

And the Behringer sub-synth is a POS compared to the dbx.
The behringer does add extra low frequencies but it also has other settings like the 'punch control' that thicken up all bass frequencies etc. If you had any meaningful experience with it you'd know.

I managed to get very full sounding bass from speakers with a cutoff about 50hz. I used it for years and it really adds weight to the low end and yes it DOES add to upper harmonics as well.
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Old 24th May 2018, 01:27 AM   #16
bentoronto is online now bentoronto  Canada
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Missing fundamental bass
Originally Posted by Lunchietey View Post
I managed to get very full sounding bass from speakers with a cutoff about 50hz. I used it for years and it really adds weight to the low end and yes it DOES add to upper harmonics as well.
I've been fine-tuning my system since recently adding a sub that plays really nice down to 12Hz.

17 foot pipe sub 12-230 Hz 5dB

Last day or two, I've been listening to my ESL panels playing full-range with no EQ, crossover, or subs. Including some of recordings with RTAs showing content below 35 Hz. The ESL panels are notably wonderful, flat, and clean but drop off fast below about 90 Hz.

While a fan of bass like myself can tell something is missing on organ pedals... barely. My ear can barely barely tell the difference which is mostly visceral and even then barely (but nicely, of course). I guess I was expecting zilch from the panels on certain organ pedals but the sound was remarkably intact with a good sense of that tone beating you'd get in a big church and it must all aural.

Likewise, years with a Klipshorn bass brought me astonishing bass even though it pumps out little below 38 Hz.

So I wonder if a clean, flat, not-too-localizable speaker output can produce truly nice perceived bass while lesser systems do not do as well?

BTW, the clarity of sound from my ESLs playing full range makes me also wonder if the full-range-speaker enthusiasts aren't so misguided after all.

HiFi aspirations since 1957. Currently working on motional feedback again... the final frontier in audio (also, see recent post with data on a 17-foot labyrinth sub)

Last edited by bentoronto; 24th May 2018 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 26th May 2018, 09:47 AM   #17
Ivo is offline Ivo  Netherlands
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Ben, you are both stuck up and amusing. ;-)

There are ups and downs to any system. I think the zealots always have a suboptimal system. Multiway, fullrange, religious, political.

Many of the fullrange enthusiasts are just tinkerers and have tried lots of stuff. I think once you have found what works well with a set of fullrange drivers, it is probably mnot worse than a well designed multiway system. Warts and all.

No shame in admitting it's growing on you. ;--)
We want to be happy, bold and free
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Old 26th May 2018, 11:26 AM   #18
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by wonderfulaudio View Post

Looking at the bluetooth speakers and the fact that their bass really is good for the diminitive size, my gut feeling says they are relying on the MaxxBass chip. Such a small box even with the passive radiators is not going to produce that bass
Actually you'd be surprised. I've built a pair of Bluetooth passive radiator speakers (not yet on the website) that have useful bass output down to 60Hz. It's quite remarkable.
What the hell are you screamin' for? Every five minutes there's a bomb or somethin'! I'm leavin! bzzzz! Now with website! www.5een.co.uk under construction.
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