My sister-in-law has purchased two Mackie Thump12s for her outdoor bar, and has approached me about getting a subwoofer for them. DIY or retail - options are open. Requirements are that the subwoofer be able to keep up with the Mackies (but it doesn't have to be much louder than that - there are apartments at one side of the bar), that they can be used outdoors, and that cost be kept down (she purchased Mackies, so...).
Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
I've not gigged out with it yet but picked up Behringer VQ1800 for the daughter's DJ rig (my B rig). Tops are also Behringer 12 actives. Testing in the basement and I was pretty impressed. $350 shipped (scratch n dent). 500w active 18 with HP and variable XO and boost. Insane to me. No mixer/no amp rack/no processor rack. Plug em in and plug in a mp3/phone. Instant club.
Sub is -10db at 40hz, so no real hifi but it does a surprisingly good job. If you are smart and try not to do stupid stuff like boost 40hz it gets quite loud. Same goes for the active tops. Dare I say the system would probably jam a decent sized wedding if you dial it in well.
Sub is -10db at 40hz, so no real hifi but it does a surprisingly good job. If you are smart and try not to do stupid stuff like boost 40hz it gets quite loud. Same goes for the active tops. Dare I say the system would probably jam a decent sized wedding if you dial it in well.
I checked out the club last night. While they're waiting on a new subwoofer, they're using a QSC KSub. It couldn't keep up, but I think that's mainly a gain structure issue as the gain on the sub was turned up to the max and it wasn't sounding distorted. -6dB at 48 Hz according to the specs, so not much of a "subwoofer", but still the specs say that it's capable of up to 130dB and that should have been more audible than what I heard that night.
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer
At $90 each these are pretty attractive. Drop two of them in a nice sized 2x18 (or 2 singles) ported box and you've got plenty of bass.
I wouldn't trust the 130db claim on that Ksub. I'd bet the number is purely theoretical.
At $90 each these are pretty attractive. Drop two of them in a nice sized 2x18 (or 2 singles) ported box and you've got plenty of bass.
I wouldn't trust the 130db claim on that Ksub. I'd bet the number is purely theoretical.
Goldwood version?
Brian
I've been gone for a few years...life ya know.
Not Hijacking the thread, I have a very similar need.
I actually need to build a couple of subs for a similar reason. my tssub15 died after only 5 gigs and costs more to fix than build 2 new cabs, and it kinda sucked anyway. The amp modules in those are crap. It died due to moving it. grrrrrr
I was looking at using the goldwood gw-15pc to build karaoke/presentation subs to go under my modded pv15 neo's. this is similar to the bar usage the OP is requesting. personally I want to hit 35 to 80 or 35 to 100(max) to simply ADD some tapped horn type angry thump. There was no work for the big system here so it was given away and sold off for next to free a few years ago. This year I wound up doing a bunch of cheap weddings to my surprise and appear to be heading toward karaoke/wedding/corp presentation (film/voice) in this small market.
So: Would a cab like you proposed work with the goldwood or perhaps a box with a big passive radiator under it like a home sub? I was thinking of the old Bjorno twqp too but don't know what the outcome with those was.
I installed a velodyne 12 home sub in a very small bar, and flew 4 la4 cabs high. Sounds great with enough authoritative thump. Three years and it's still going strong. I wouldn't recommend doing that exactly, but maybe building a similar type of cab set but more professional driven by external amps.
The sound of the home sub in the bar works really well but as a home unit it does have its weaknesses.
Brian
I've been gone for a few years...life ya know.
Not Hijacking the thread, I have a very similar need.
I actually need to build a couple of subs for a similar reason. my tssub15 died after only 5 gigs and costs more to fix than build 2 new cabs, and it kinda sucked anyway. The amp modules in those are crap. It died due to moving it. grrrrrr
I was looking at using the goldwood gw-15pc to build karaoke/presentation subs to go under my modded pv15 neo's. this is similar to the bar usage the OP is requesting. personally I want to hit 35 to 80 or 35 to 100(max) to simply ADD some tapped horn type angry thump. There was no work for the big system here so it was given away and sold off for next to free a few years ago. This year I wound up doing a bunch of cheap weddings to my surprise and appear to be heading toward karaoke/wedding/corp presentation (film/voice) in this small market.
So: Would a cab like you proposed work with the goldwood or perhaps a box with a big passive radiator under it like a home sub? I was thinking of the old Bjorno twqp too but don't know what the outcome with those was.
I installed a velodyne 12 home sub in a very small bar, and flew 4 la4 cabs high. Sounds great with enough authoritative thump. Three years and it's still going strong. I wouldn't recommend doing that exactly, but maybe building a similar type of cab set but more professional driven by external amps.
The sound of the home sub in the bar works really well but as a home unit it does have its weaknesses.
addition
What I meant by not recommending the home sub was that I wouldn't put a home sub (or a few) like the velodyne in a place where I was not around to keep an eye on it like where it is now. I Don't trust the electronics.
The design and sound however of the cabinet itself is quite pleasing and not as muddy as many subs that interfere with people talking or conducting the usual bar business. No serious ear fatigue issues either in the piano,acoustic, karaoke bar that system is in.
What I meant by not recommending the home sub was that I wouldn't put a home sub (or a few) like the velodyne in a place where I was not around to keep an eye on it like where it is now. I Don't trust the electronics.
The design and sound however of the cabinet itself is quite pleasing and not as muddy as many subs that interfere with people talking or conducting the usual bar business. No serious ear fatigue issues either in the piano,acoustic, karaoke bar that system is in.
See attached for what the predicted response looks like with the GW driver (8-ohm version). As the box is tuned to 40 Hz, you won't get 35 Hz from it. Of the two drivers, the Dayton one looks a little better and should last longer (better power handling). And it costs less to boot.
No way would I build a sub with a downward-facing PR
Attachments
I have some concerns about the quoted specs for those drivers. It looks like it uses the same motor as the 12" and 15 versions. However, the rated Xmax is more (6 mm versus 5 mm) and Mmd is LESS than the 15" version even though the cone material looks the same.
I wouldn't design something for that driver until I had the opportunity to measure and confirm the specs.
Here's what I'd do with the Dayton 18-incher if the specs were accurate. Note: I would add some boost at 35 Hz to flatten the response a bit.
Attachments
The specs for the PA380-8 15" show Mms at 127 grams, the PA460-8 18" 171 grams, about the difference one would expect between the size cone. The 18" voice coil is a lower impedance with more inductance, which could account for a MM more Xmax.
Attachments
I went back and checked the specs I had for the 15" and apparently I had the wrong Fs (sigh). It wasn't that the Mmd that I had for the PA460 was too low, it was that the Mmd I had for the PA380 was too high...
The PA460 actually has lower impedance and lower inductance than the PA380
PA380: Re=6.3 ohms, Le=4.12mH
PA460: Re=5.6 ohms, Le=3.9mH
Also interesting is the 12" version, the PA310, seems to have the same motor, and its impedance checks in at 5.6 ohms, but Le and BL is significantly lower. Less magnet force..?
If the PA380 and PA460 are built like the PA310, I'd be happy to use them. Facing forward or backward only though. The spider seems to be made of a material that leads to visible cone sag if the driver is mounted facing up.
Here's the response with the correct t/s parameters for the PA380:
Attachments
That second response for the 380 looks more like what I would expect from a accordion surround woofer vs the rubber surround. Thanks for that.
If I get time I'll try starting with your cab and maybe increasing size a tad to move the bump lower.
I actually prefer the tone of the rubber surround in this application with it's naturally occurring roll off above 100 and the "bump" in the 60hz range or lower.
The curve in the goldwood plot looks closer to what I was going for in the furysub with the bump in the bottom to make it easier on the system by bumping eq in the cabinet rather than the eq and amps.
My logic was this, if the cab makes more of a desired/required frequency that I know I need, it's easier to cut at the eq to get it to "the accepted standard of flat".
I really like the idea of incorporating a loudness contour into the cabinets themselves.
My experience with the Mackie Thumps (I wound up selling them), was that they ran out of gas hard and quickly. A decent "thumpy" sub under them would really help alot. The 15" set I had could not handle electric drums.
I'd mount the thumps up high, and drop 1 or two subs in a corner somewhere together, possibly even facing into a corner. I'd cut in the 200 and 1.5khz range, 4k and 6.3k to make a hole in the sound for people to talk so you can get the volume up to a nice level and people can tune in or out of the music. If they can feel a nice little thump in the bladder/hip area, and you can keep ear fatigue at a minimum, and they can conduct business or relationships, people will want to stay in your bar much longer.
If I get time I'll try starting with your cab and maybe increasing size a tad to move the bump lower.
I actually prefer the tone of the rubber surround in this application with it's naturally occurring roll off above 100 and the "bump" in the 60hz range or lower.
The curve in the goldwood plot looks closer to what I was going for in the furysub with the bump in the bottom to make it easier on the system by bumping eq in the cabinet rather than the eq and amps.
My logic was this, if the cab makes more of a desired/required frequency that I know I need, it's easier to cut at the eq to get it to "the accepted standard of flat".
I really like the idea of incorporating a loudness contour into the cabinets themselves.
My experience with the Mackie Thumps (I wound up selling them), was that they ran out of gas hard and quickly. A decent "thumpy" sub under them would really help alot. The 15" set I had could not handle electric drums.
I'd mount the thumps up high, and drop 1 or two subs in a corner somewhere together, possibly even facing into a corner. I'd cut in the 200 and 1.5khz range, 4k and 6.3k to make a hole in the sound for people to talk so you can get the volume up to a nice level and people can tune in or out of the music. If they can feel a nice little thump in the bladder/hip area, and you can keep ear fatigue at a minimum, and they can conduct business or relationships, people will want to stay in your bar much longer.
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TIP for self powered bar cabs
Get some filter material!!
Make a filter with light duty velcro glued and sewn to cover the air vents on the back of the cab. Mount the cabs such that you can access these filters easily.
Someone in the bar should pull and clean these filters every month. This will ensure your cabinets do not get coated with sticky human skin on the inside leading to amp failure and potential fire. This is only for installed systems.
If it's a smoking bar you might want a finer filter as there is a nasty bacteria that grows on smoke residue and STINKS!!. I have a rack and one amp that still stink after 6 years out of any bars.
I am complaining about this and I am a smoker...what does that say
Skin cells combine with dust creating a sticky smelly residue that is really hard to remove. This residue also coats the chips in the amp causing overheating in a fairly short time. It will also clog up the fans rendering them useless. I would make 2 sets so the staff can simply change one set, and wash the other set that lives next in the equipment area. If you make it easy for staff to perform that kind of maintenance there is more of a chance it will get done.
Do the same for any amps or fan loaded gear in your equipment rack. You will be shocked to see how fast they clog up in a Bar.
Get some filter material!!
Make a filter with light duty velcro glued and sewn to cover the air vents on the back of the cab. Mount the cabs such that you can access these filters easily.
Someone in the bar should pull and clean these filters every month. This will ensure your cabinets do not get coated with sticky human skin on the inside leading to amp failure and potential fire. This is only for installed systems.
If it's a smoking bar you might want a finer filter as there is a nasty bacteria that grows on smoke residue and STINKS!!. I have a rack and one amp that still stink after 6 years out of any bars.
I am complaining about this and I am a smoker...what does that say
Skin cells combine with dust creating a sticky smelly residue that is really hard to remove. This residue also coats the chips in the amp causing overheating in a fairly short time. It will also clog up the fans rendering them useless. I would make 2 sets so the staff can simply change one set, and wash the other set that lives next in the equipment area. If you make it easy for staff to perform that kind of maintenance there is more of a chance it will get done.
Do the same for any amps or fan loaded gear in your equipment rack. You will be shocked to see how fast they clog up in a Bar.
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Brian,
If you can upgrade to some nicer drivers, the ones I used in my 15" subs will put around 6dB on your last sim. You could use one cab instead of 2.
I'm not keen on Mackie Thumps either. Using a pair of the 15"s and matching subs, the tops were limiting doing rock 'n' roll for a room of 50 seated. There was also a big hole in the midrange, which made Guns 'N Roses sound like a bass + drums + vocals mix. No guitars. Difficult to mix on, so I used my own PA after that.
A KSub won't hit 130dB unless there's a peak in the midrange and someone's opened it up and bypassed the crossover. That said, it should still make a reasonable thump. If they can use that long-term, it's by far the cheapest option.
Chris
If you can upgrade to some nicer drivers, the ones I used in my 15" subs will put around 6dB on your last sim. You could use one cab instead of 2.
I'm not keen on Mackie Thumps either. Using a pair of the 15"s and matching subs, the tops were limiting doing rock 'n' roll for a room of 50 seated. There was also a big hole in the midrange, which made Guns 'N Roses sound like a bass + drums + vocals mix. No guitars. Difficult to mix on, so I used my own PA after that.
A KSub won't hit 130dB unless there's a peak in the midrange and someone's opened it up and bypassed the crossover. That said, it should still make a reasonable thump. If they can use that long-term, it's by far the cheapest option.
Chris
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