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Cheap sub for Mackie Thump12s....
Cheap sub for Mackie Thump12s....
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Old 6th October 2017, 04:24 PM   #11
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zettairyouiki View Post
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer

At $90 each these are pretty attractive. Drop two of them in a nice sized 2x18 (or 2 singles) ported box and you've got plenty of bass.
I have some concerns about the quoted specs for those drivers. It looks like it uses the same motor as the 12" and 15 versions. However, the rated Xmax is more (6 mm versus 5 mm) and Mmd is LESS than the 15" version even though the cone material looks the same.

I wouldn't design something for that driver until I had the opportunity to measure and confirm the specs.
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Old 6th October 2017, 04:59 PM   #12
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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Originally Posted by Brian Steele View Post
I have some concerns about the quoted specs for those drivers. It looks like it uses the same motor as the 12" and 15 versions. However, the rated Xmax is more (6 mm versus 5 mm) and Mmd is LESS than the 15" version even though the cone material looks the same.

I wouldn't design something for that driver until I had the opportunity to measure and confirm the specs.
Here's what I'd do with the Dayton 18-incher if the specs were accurate. Note: I would add some boost at 35 Hz to flatten the response a bit.
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File Type: png 2017-10-06 (4).png (117.9 KB, 72 views)
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Old 6th October 2017, 05:12 PM   #13
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Steele View Post
I have some concerns about the quoted specs for those drivers. It looks like it uses the same motor as the 12" and 15 versions. However, the rated Xmax is more (6 mm versus 5 mm) and Mmd is LESS than the 15" version even though the cone material looks the same.

I wouldn't design something for that driver until I had the opportunity to measure and confirm the specs.
The specs for the PA380-8 15" show Mms at 127 grams, the PA460-8 18" 171 grams, about the difference one would expect between the size cone. The 18" voice coil is a lower impedance with more inductance, which could account for a MM more Xmax.
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Old 6th October 2017, 05:30 PM   #14
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
The specs for the PA380-8 15" show Mms at 127 grams, the PA460-8 18" 171 grams, about the difference one would expect between the size cone. The 18" voice coil is a lower impedance with more inductance, which could account for a MM more Xmax.
I went back and checked the specs I had for the 15" and apparently I had the wrong Fs (sigh). It wasn't that the Mmd that I had for the PA460 was too low, it was that the Mmd I had for the PA380 was too high...


The PA460 actually has lower impedance and lower inductance than the PA380

PA380: Re=6.3 ohms, Le=4.12mH
PA460: Re=5.6 ohms, Le=3.9mH


Also interesting is the 12" version, the PA310, seems to have the same motor, and its impedance checks in at 5.6 ohms, but Le and BL is significantly lower. Less magnet force..?

If the PA380 and PA460 are built like the PA310, I'd be happy to use them. Facing forward or backward only though. The spider seems to be made of a material that leads to visible cone sag if the driver is mounted facing up.
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Old 6th October 2017, 05:33 PM   #15
Brian Steele is offline Brian Steele  Grenada
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40 Hz sub based on the Dayton PA-380 15" driver.

Advantages: 40 Hz capability, "small" box size.

Disadvantages: low(?) peak output, Xmax exceeded with 200W input.
Here's the response with the correct t/s parameters for the PA380:
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Old 7th October 2017, 02:21 PM   #16
screamersusa is offline screamersusa  United States
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That second response for the 380 looks more like what I would expect from a accordion surround woofer vs the rubber surround. Thanks for that.
If I get time I'll try starting with your cab and maybe increasing size a tad to move the bump lower.
I actually prefer the tone of the rubber surround in this application with it's naturally occurring roll off above 100 and the "bump" in the 60hz range or lower.
The curve in the goldwood plot looks closer to what I was going for in the furysub with the bump in the bottom to make it easier on the system by bumping eq in the cabinet rather than the eq and amps.
My logic was this, if the cab makes more of a desired/required frequency that I know I need, it's easier to cut at the eq to get it to "the accepted standard of flat".
I really like the idea of incorporating a loudness contour into the cabinets themselves.

My experience with the Mackie Thumps (I wound up selling them), was that they ran out of gas hard and quickly. A decent "thumpy" sub under them would really help alot. The 15" set I had could not handle electric drums.
I'd mount the thumps up high, and drop 1 or two subs in a corner somewhere together, possibly even facing into a corner. I'd cut in the 200 and 1.5khz range, 4k and 6.3k to make a hole in the sound for people to talk so you can get the volume up to a nice level and people can tune in or out of the music. If they can feel a nice little thump in the bladder/hip area, and you can keep ear fatigue at a minimum, and they can conduct business or relationships, people will want to stay in your bar much longer.

Last edited by screamersusa; 7th October 2017 at 02:31 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 7th October 2017, 02:50 PM   #17
Pano is online now Pano  United States
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Cheap sub for Mackie Thump12s....
So much truth there, thanks! If you can give 'em some thump and tizz, while leaving the vocal range clear, people will get the feeling of the music without having to fight it. It's a much better experience. And that's what it's about.
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Old 7th October 2017, 03:33 PM   #18
screamersusa is offline screamersusa  United States
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Default TIP for self powered bar cabs

Get some filter material!!

Make a filter with light duty velcro glued and sewn to cover the air vents on the back of the cab. Mount the cabs such that you can access these filters easily.
Someone in the bar should pull and clean these filters every month. This will ensure your cabinets do not get coated with sticky human skin on the inside leading to amp failure and potential fire. This is only for installed systems.
If it's a smoking bar you might want a finer filter as there is a nasty bacteria that grows on smoke residue and STINKS!!. I have a rack and one amp that still stink after 6 years out of any bars.
I am complaining about this and I am a smoker...what does that say

Skin cells combine with dust creating a sticky smelly residue that is really hard to remove. This residue also coats the chips in the amp causing overheating in a fairly short time. It will also clog up the fans rendering them useless. I would make 2 sets so the staff can simply change one set, and wash the other set that lives next in the equipment area. If you make it easy for staff to perform that kind of maintenance there is more of a chance it will get done.
Do the same for any amps or fan loaded gear in your equipment rack. You will be shocked to see how fast they clog up in a Bar.

Last edited by screamersusa; 7th October 2017 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 7th October 2017, 03:57 PM   #19
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Brian,

If you can upgrade to some nicer drivers, the ones I used in my 15" subs will put around 6dB on your last sim. You could use one cab instead of 2.

I'm not keen on Mackie Thumps either. Using a pair of the 15"s and matching subs, the tops were limiting doing rock 'n' roll for a room of 50 seated. There was also a big hole in the midrange, which made Guns 'N Roses sound like a bass + drums + vocals mix. No guitars. Difficult to mix on, so I used my own PA after that.

A KSub won't hit 130dB unless there's a peak in the midrange and someone's opened it up and bypassed the crossover. That said, it should still make a reasonable thump. If they can use that long-term, it's by far the cheapest option.

Chris
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Old 7th October 2017, 04:55 PM   #20
Pano is online now Pano  United States
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Cheap sub for Mackie Thump12s....
The KSub is pretty good for the size, really.
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