As I understand angling two drivers is because they couple together better in the HF range, the cone centers come closer together and therefore have less phase related issues, that's all I know on this subject, but could you please explain why exactly not less than 20 deg and no more than 30 deg?
I'm glad BP1 made the comment! We were talking about the same thing but I didn't realize he was clarifying it further. So I learned something new...thank you. And thank you M J Morgan for being so active and responsive in this thread. Your passion is obvious and admirable.
As I type this I'm eyeing a pair of 15's that may get some Hornresp attention tonight for possibly working them into an automotive build using your generous research as a guide. I don't compete anymore but it is fun to show up and have a bit of fun with the younger ones who are new to it. Age and treachery > youth and exuberance, right?
No problem LayinLo, it is a labor of love
, and with a growing community the development is accelerating
..... I am glad that you find the discussion helpful ...We have much to learn yet, we are still exploring and refining .... Are you anywhere near South Carolina? Our friend Matt Kimble has been running a pair of strong 15s in his Paraflex sub (in a small car) and he has been winning awards for quite some time now ... .Great system .. He loves to demo, so if you are in that part of the country you could meet up with him
..I believe he is using a pair of Massive Brand Gordo 15s that have been reconed ... ........ Very strong motors are preferable in this application ...
These young folks could use some guidance from the elders and they would certainly take interest in (and inspiration from) a well designed system that outruns others in it's class while also being delightfully musical
BP1Fan ,
That is a great question ... We have been wondering about the very same thing ....
We have no doubt that the split-path symmetrical design distributes pressure across the driver's cone more evenly (compared to the asymmetrical designs)
but we are left wondering about the possibility that we might have some additional benefit from the improved coupling between the ends of the LF-QW/Horn resonators and the volume within the High Tuned resonator
.......... We really don't know for sure yet, but with as impressed as everyone has been with the Paraflex C-2D kickbins and the Paraflex C-2E subs it does raise that question for us .. But ......
For the sake of fairness i am going to say that not all of the split-path symmetrical designs were entirely successful
.... The Paraflex C-2A was honestly not our best work and we learned an important lesson from that one about how having additional cross sectional area in the High-Tuned resonator section does not make up for a lack of length/depth in that resonator 
..
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Augusts,
We started off with less toe-in angle on the baffle but there have been a few revisions since then ... The more current Super Planar 2x12" cabinet uses a 30 degree angle, and we are working on some newer plans that will use a 40 degree angle .....
To see the images, media and discussion about a more current version of the SP 2x12" click on this link below:
SUPER PLANAR 2X12" SPLIT-PATH SYMMETRICAL WITH 30 DEGREE BAFFLE
No problem LayinLo, it is a labor of love
Are you anywhere near South Carolina? Our friend Matt Kimble has been running a pair of strong 15s in his Paraflex sub (in a small car) and he has been winning awards for quite some time now ... .Great system .. He loves to demo, so if you are in that part of the country you could meet up with him
I believe he is using a pair of Massive Brand Gordo 15s that have been reconed ... ........ Very strong motors are preferable in this application ...
These young folks could use some guidance from the elders and they would certainly take interest in (and inspiration from) a well designed system that outruns others in it's class while also being delightfully musical
I'm in Alabama but still have old Marine friends that I served with that are in SC.
Just so you realize how excited I am about this and the development of your work, I have started reading this thread from post number 1. I'm almost through with page 76. I noticed some talk about Skar driver's being good candidates, specifically the DDX. I happen to have (2) 15" VVXv3 left over from a (4) 15" build in an SUV. I have DATS measurements on all of them and T/S that I run through REW just as a double check.
side note: I built the impedance jig for REW several years back before I obtained a DATSv2. I can share any of the data from those or any other subs I have measured over the years if you are interested or if you know certain parameters that you like to see, I can check what I have that is verified and pass on the info for the ones that fit your requirements.
Back to the Skar VVXv3 15's. I came about the forum while trying to research an exotic build for the pair to go in my F-150. I currently have a 6th order in it with the pair and they love the enclosure. I think I'd like to model these to see how they would perform in a superplanar or paraflex style. I don't want to infringe on any of your work, only humbly contribute out of respect for your generosity and enthusiasm. I'll try to attach a few pics of the 6th order parallel tuned enclosure I built thats in there now.
-LL
LayinLo,
Very cool! Next time you are visiting those guys in SC you should meet up with Matt Kimble, he would gladly have you sit in with him for some listening tests ... His Paraflex 2x15 is very musical yet is capable of some extreme SPL .. Brutally thrilling!
..LayinLo ,
The DDX 12" is definitely a gem at the price they are selling it for, but so far the other DDX drivers that have been tested (from other series) are not looking as useful for Paraflex cabinets .... Not sure if we have measured the VVXv3 15" yet ...I would love to see their parameters..... One of the main things that we are looking for is abundant motor force in relation to the cone area (meaning high BL^2/Re figure after the BL is adjusted for Lossy Inductance) ...... Reasonably low moving mass and sufficient compliance on the suspension are also nice but we don't often see that in strong Car Audio subs (The DDX is still tighter and heavier than ideal, but it gets the job done)...
When you have a chance be sure to check out our sister group on Facebook where we post and discuss the measured parameters of various drivers ..... The measurements that you made with your REW rig would be welcomed there as contributions
... Here is the link to our HOQWS sister group:Verified Speaker T/S Parameters Database
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Hello guys. I went through about 60 pages of the topic, and am little confused about results. Few misinterpretations here and there. Just few of my ideas:
Lossy Le based on Zmin of the driver - Zmin is based on values taken at different frequency points for different drivers (above resonant peak of free air driver if I understand well). That means drivers with lower resonance might be in advantage, and quite contradictory drivers with different stiffness should also be in advantage or disadvantage. That has nothing to do with Le and magnetic losses.
Also, not going too deep, for maximum SPL and performance of the driver, most of the losses are utterly irrelevant, as long as they are not manifested in coil heat. If not, then the hell with it, amplifiers are capable these days, just increase the level for the speaker. It will perform better...
For SPL figures, I see 130dB, 140dB, 150dB, talking about efficiency, yet almost nobody takes average load/impedance into consideration. More loading (which is a good thing) is not equal to more efficiency. It also can mean less maximum power input compared to less loaded systems.
Anyways, I'm in search for most power dense and efficient compact systems and enclosures. Could anybody help me please with that by posting more hornresp impedance and efficiency graphs of their QW designs please?
I have come up with my own design, going exactly the opposite way to *anybody else. Sticking 21“ in very compact undertuned BR cabinet, crossing it over so that there is no impedance walley present in the usable passband. I would like to compare my miraculous box (tongue in cheek) in (up to) 250 litre (weight so to speak) category with other designs. Some sims and real measurements to follow if anybody is interested.
Lossy Le based on Zmin of the driver - Zmin is based on values taken at different frequency points for different drivers (above resonant peak of free air driver if I understand well). That means drivers with lower resonance might be in advantage, and quite contradictory drivers with different stiffness should also be in advantage or disadvantage. That has nothing to do with Le and magnetic losses.
Also, not going too deep, for maximum SPL and performance of the driver, most of the losses are utterly irrelevant, as long as they are not manifested in coil heat. If not, then the hell with it, amplifiers are capable these days, just increase the level for the speaker. It will perform better...
For SPL figures, I see 130dB, 140dB, 150dB, talking about efficiency, yet almost nobody takes average load/impedance into consideration. More loading (which is a good thing) is not equal to more efficiency. It also can mean less maximum power input compared to less loaded systems.
Anyways, I'm in search for most power dense and efficient compact systems and enclosures. Could anybody help me please with that by posting more hornresp impedance and efficiency graphs of their QW designs please?
I have come up with my own design, going exactly the opposite way to *anybody else. Sticking 21“ in very compact undertuned BR cabinet, crossing it over so that there is no impedance walley present in the usable passband. I would like to compare my miraculous box (tongue in cheek) in (up to) 250 litre (weight so to speak) category with other designs. Some sims and real measurements to follow if anybody is interested.
Hello Crash
,The Lossy Inductance feature doesn't use Zmin at all in it's formula, it uses "Re" and "Le" to determine how much "BL" needs to be dialed down in order to compensate for an error in the predicted amplitude/response curve .............The Lossy Inductance feature is not a perfect tool and is only really useful in the subwoofer range when working with drivers that have high relative inductance so it should only be enabled in a narrow range of situations, however it does what it was intended to do well enough in order to increase accuracy of the model (if applied where appropriate)...
NOTE: There is a much more versatile tool out there called "Semi Inductance" which performs this correction of the model with more precision, and isn't limited to certain drivers and is applicable to more than just the subbass range ....... It is certainly better for sure, just not as convenient at the moment (because it requires additional parameters which aren't readily provided by manufacturers, at least not yet).. .
Well, lets just say that some are more relevant than others, but if we are talking about the Lossy Inductance feature again it is something that we really shouldn't think of as a "loss" in the same sense as something like thermal compression losses, instead it revolves around our software's misinterpretation of drivers with high relative inductance which alters the results of our model ..... Features like the Lossy Inductance formula and Semi-Inductance are just some methods to correct for that error so our predictions can be more accurate
When i am driving around town i can stomp harder on my gas pedal and my car might go a little faster but it doesn't make it a better car
.Hornresp allows us to optimize a cabinet's loading/damping around a specific driver ..... Thanks to Hornresp the designer has the ability to take all sorts of aspects into consideration...
With the Paraflex and Super Planar series the design goals are typically cost effectiveness & efficiency, but we have come up with a few designs that can be considered power dense with the right drivers ...... A pair of 15DS115 drivers (or 15SW115 drivers) can be plugged into our Paraflex C-2E sub for over 3200w (or 3400w) combined "nominal" (like rms) power rating in a very high efficiency cabinet that has the same outer dimensions as our C-2E 1x18" ..I realize that 24"x48"x34" is not particularly compact but the performance justifies the bulk ...... .. Loading the cabinet with a pair of 15NW100 drivers is less extreme but the cabinet is still a fantastic performer .. .
There are others .... We have many that perform well for their size and their cost ..... We will soon be test driving the new Eminence 21" in a Paraflex C-2E cabinet specifically optimized for that driver .....
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Oh. I have then caught on wrong piece of information. My mistake.
I about agree with your approach, that is good.
Bowing in sorry for misinterpretation...
That is not comparable situation. The objective here is to have more performance and output. We´re speaking about V12 beast vs four cilinder eurocar. The big motor obviously has more losses and less MPG. Yet we want more performance, so it is kind of inevitable to have more losses. Although Jeremy Clarkson one time proved that gas pedal down on weak motor takes more than strong car with half pedal down at the same speed. Soooo...
For your hornresp response: Yes, I wrote almost nobody. You are not nobody. You are one of these samples that are wery bad choices to sample on. You did your homework.
For the designs you do, I have no reservations. Well, physics allows for stuff in larger enclosures. I will do my physical paraflex attempts to learn some more. Yet somehow I "got nerve" from people screaming out loud to the world, how their miraculous box is most efficient and strongest and such. And I did not mean your portfolio at all. I´m not always captain obvious, and often need some reassurance and data to chew through the situation. You had a reason to chime in, but there is no need to defend yours. I was looking for something specific. I´m somehow looking for some rule of thumb graph of enclosures, and their efficiency peaks related to the size. I know full well it is not possible for case to case basis, but it should be possible to run the math to see where in size each enclosure excells. Seems that bassreflex (or even just direct radiator by itself) excels in up to 250l of box size, once it does not run out of cone excursion.
That leads me to the idea of using only drivers around their resonant frequency. How would that one end up? Does anybody see forward?
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diyuser2010:
Thanks for the link. Internet is too dark and it is unfortunately too expensive to see, without being sure there are needed answers inside.
So, borderline useless? Not sure here.
An AES membership allows you full access to all of the papers on the AES site for a year, instead of paying per paper. You can download and store the papers for later viewing.
In my opinion, it is worth every penny.
diyuser2010: So, I have finished reading these documents. Nice, yet it did not really answer the question. I mean efficiency is still bound to other things like behavior and distortion, price of the system and many more aspects. While it will work, it might not be worth to work in this fashion.
Announcement ..... "Units" .... New developments..
Gentlemen,
We have begun to organize our key posts under the "units" section in the public group .... Here is the link:
HIGH ORDER QUARTERWAVE SOCIETY "units" section
There have also been some exciting new developments .... A new Paraflex top which seems to be our best ever (according to our initial testing, it is living up to expectations and then some) ..... The Golden Formula Paraflex subwoofer series is also very promising (the first set has just been built) ....
Gentlemen,
We have begun to organize our key posts under the "units" section in the public group .... Here is the link:
HIGH ORDER QUARTERWAVE SOCIETY "units" section
There have also been some exciting new developments .... A new Paraflex top which seems to be our best ever (according to our initial testing, it is living up to expectations and then some) ..... The Golden Formula Paraflex subwoofer series is also very promising (the first set has just been built) ....
